Electronic Ignition.........Advice

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
Dave81
Posts: 7141
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 10 4:01 pm
Location: Worcestershire

Post by Dave81 »

Right o then.

Many thanks to all the advice, i think i'll try going down this route.

Will order 2x 4 pin HEI (1 for spare), and will replace the coil on mine with the MSD Blaster 2 Coil.

Again please inform me if there is better out there than the MSD.

Is it worth upgrading the Distributor at the same time?

If so is MSD the best bang for buck?

Thanks for all the help! :thumbright:
Dave Tildesley.....MMA-081
72 Dodge Dart
73 Plymouth Duster - SOLD

I wanna go so FAST i think i'm going to DIE!..........Then i'll shift into second!

"My Car is a work in progress, Probably never gonna get finished, never gonna have the money to Bananarama!!"
User avatar
Adrian Worman
Posts: 4376
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 10 1:23 pm
Location: Milton Keynes

Post by Adrian Worman »

This GM style h.e.i IS the best bang for the buck, you'll never make an MSD work for this little ;)
Jesus built my hot rod

72 Challenger
65 Barracuda
User avatar
Dave81
Posts: 7141
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 10 4:01 pm
Location: Worcestershire

Post by Dave81 »

Sorry Ade don't quite understand? :help:

I will be going HEI 4 pin (ACDELCO or Petronix), so my MSD question was about replacing my 8V coil with a 12V so i can ditch the Ballast resitor?

Found this snippit of info:

If I use a GM HEI ignition module, can I remove my ballast resistor?
Yes you can as long as you either
1. Use an HEI E-core coil with low resistance or
2. Use a canister coil with 1.0 to 1.5 ohms resistance. This resistance is required for the coil, not the ignition module.
You must retain the ballast reistor if you wish to
3. Use the stock Chrysler coil with .5 ohms resistance. The ballast resistor here will prevent the stock coil from overheating.
The HEI ignition module enables you to use less primary resistance, but will function fine if you wish to use more resistance.



Sorry if this seems like a simple question but i'm trying to get my head around it......... :scratch:

Looking at summits page below:
http://www.summitracing.com/search/Year ... Asc&page=1
There are a few coils stating different max voltage and also differing Primary and secondary resistances.

Going from point 2 above i take it when he refers to 1-1.5 ohms resistance, this is primary?

So:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PNX-40011/ should be what is required............. :? ??
Dave Tildesley.....MMA-081
72 Dodge Dart
73 Plymouth Duster - SOLD

I wanna go so FAST i think i'm going to DIE!..........Then i'll shift into second!

"My Car is a work in progress, Probably never gonna get finished, never gonna have the money to Bananarama!!"
User avatar
Adrian Worman
Posts: 4376
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 10 1:23 pm
Location: Milton Keynes

Post by Adrian Worman »

Sorry, when you asked about the MSD it was right after a question about a new distributor, I got confused :oops:
Yep that coil you found is fine :thumbright:
Jesus built my hot rod

72 Challenger
65 Barracuda
User avatar
Dave999
Posts: 9563
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 05 10:31 am
Location: Twickenham,London, England

Post by Dave999 »

blaster 2 coil works fine and i don't think you need the ballast with that.

GM truck/car coil is £30 from standard motor products vai US automotive in the UK

3 wires

ground and red n black for + and negative

click this
http://parts.usautomotive.co.uk/SpecCon ... 4612902753#

say don't know

part DR31


you will need a king lead that goes mopar distributor (bucket connector) to a modern male barb type connector on the coil

the coil looks like this

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-GM-OEM-HE ... 46046354af

make the king lead by buying a halfords lead for modern car with the end cut off and an old fassioned connector off ebay crimped on

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HT-Lead-Push- ... 5ae36dd07e

or

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Brass-Angled- ... 4cfb8be8a2


or use a short spark plug lead instead

dave
Last edited by Dave999 on Tue Jun 26, 12 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Greater Knapweed near the Mugwort by the Buckthorn tree is dying
User avatar
Dave999
Posts: 9563
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 05 10:31 am
Location: Twickenham,London, England

Post by Dave999 »

MSD distributor is just a copy of the Ford magnetic pickup distibutor

your Mopar one will work and will work better with a new spring kit and an FBO or mopar performance adjustable advance plate

think the MSD offesr that functionality as well but it will cost more

Dave
The Greater Knapweed near the Mugwort by the Buckthorn tree is dying
User avatar
Dave81
Posts: 7141
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 10 4:01 pm
Location: Worcestershire

Post by Dave81 »

Cheers Ade/Dave,

Will look at it later (work wont allow Ebay......... :roll: ) :thumbright:
Dave Tildesley.....MMA-081
72 Dodge Dart
73 Plymouth Duster - SOLD

I wanna go so FAST i think i'm going to DIE!..........Then i'll shift into second!

"My Car is a work in progress, Probably never gonna get finished, never gonna have the money to Bananarama!!"
User avatar
Dave-R
Posts: 24752
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 04 11:23 pm
Location: Dave Robson lives in Geordieland
Contact:

Post by Dave-R »

Dave999 wrote:MSD distributor is just a copy of the Ford magnetic pickup distibutor
I thought it was a copy of the Chevy HEI distributor? With the weights on the top for easy access to springs and timing limit bushes.
User avatar
Adrian Worman
Posts: 4376
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 10 1:23 pm
Location: Milton Keynes

Post by Adrian Worman »

Dave wrote:
Dave999 wrote:MSD distributor is just a copy of the Ford magnetic pickup distibutor
I thought it was a copy of the Chevy HEI distributor? With the weights on the top for easy access to springs and timing limit bushes.
I thought the same thing Daveman
Jesus built my hot rod

72 Challenger
65 Barracuda
User avatar
Dave999
Posts: 9563
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 05 10:31 am
Location: Twickenham,London, England

Post by Dave999 »

it probably is...

wouldn't surprise me

but the cap size is way smaller

the GM HEI dizzy has a diameter of 6 inches and a rotor arm like a small boat ...


Dave
The Greater Knapweed near the Mugwort by the Buckthorn tree is dying
User avatar
autofetish
Posts: 5599
Joined: Sat May 21, 11 6:43 am

Post by autofetish »

Dave81 wrote:Cheers Ade/Dave,

Will look at it later (work wont allow Ebay......... :roll: ) :thumbright:
Dave we are expecting a full write up and report of how you get on.
Im next ;)
User avatar
Dave999
Posts: 9563
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 05 10:31 am
Location: Twickenham,London, England

Post by Dave999 »

Dave81 wrote:Looking at summits page below:
http://www.summitracing.com/search/Year ... Asc&page=1
There are a few coils stating different max voltage and also differing Primary and secondary resistances.

Going from point 2 above i take it when he refers to 1-1.5 ohms resistance, this is primary?

So:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PNX-40011/ should be what is required............. :? ??
Coil manufacturers and suppliers like to quote voltage

this coil is a 50KV coil and its painted red with lightnigh bolts and stuff

but they don't back that up with anything useful

that 50KV would only be produced if the plug gap and the environmnet the plug gap was in happend to be very resistant to allowing a spark to propagate.

in the real world your plugs arc at anything from 7kv up to about 20KV
dictated by
plug gap
rotor to cap contact gap
and how many molecules and atoms are wedged between the plug contacts.

at that voltage stays more or less the same throughout the duration of the spark...once it starts the voltage doesn't get bigger

the higher the CR the more atoms and molecules you have wedged in the space betwen the plug contacts and the harder it is to rip off the outer electrons and make them flow through space
i.e you are making a plasma, a gas of atom nuclei sourrounded by a mist of oarfaned electrons.

so quoteing 50KV means nout much other than the insulation in the coil is good enough to support 50KV without breaking down

Primary resistance is key here...

old coils for points were either 1.5 ohms or more
or 0.5 ohms

you used the 1.5 ohm coil without a ballast resistor becasue it already includes a 1 ohm of resistance in the coil on top of the nominal 0.5 you get by winding half a mile of thin copper wire around a hunk of iron

the 0.5 ohm coil was a coil that ran for most of its life at 8V not 12 volts
it saw 8 volts only bacasue the ballast resistor dealt with the spare 4 volts by getting hot....

with only an 8 volt push the lower resistance of 0.5-0.8ohm was fine and the coil stayed happy, there were benefits related to frequency which is linked with RPM and some benefit to points life.

basically a coil has a different resistance at 1000 rpm to 200 rpm 4000 rpm etc due to a whole shed load of interacting stuff which gets lumped into a bucket called impeidence

modern 12 volt no balast resistor coils can have that low 0.5 ohm resistance and survive with 12 volt supply

and your switch in the circuit for this kind of coil is no longer a set of points or big transistor both of which would be destroyed if more than 3 amps flowed through them

its an HEI module which in theory will regulate the current through the primary to what it can handle

anything between 4 amps and about 6.5

thus

more current in primary= fatster magnetic flux build up in coil...so your dwell can be shorter for the same spark or produce a bigger better spark

and low resistance in primary and secondary lets that magnetic field collapse faster when the coil swicthes off.

Magentic field round the coil reaches out into the universe infinitely far when the coil is on
it collapses back into the coil making voltage and current when you switch it off less resistance makes it do this faster

its like putting a much wider plughole in the bath

back on track....

thus the rise time for the spark is reduced
and it has a larger current component

current is important
spark energy in joules is current x voltage
in watts its current x voltage x time in seconds

so you can achive the same energy with loads of current and little voltage or loads of voltage and little current

10x1 is the same as 1x10 if you catch me drift

but what you need is a voltage that easily makes a plasma for your plug gap, and combustion chamber environment, for your RPM range which we'll say will be no greater than 7000 rpm

more current in the mix makes the spark more robust

take off a nylon jumper and hear sparks of 20 KV click in your hair
very high voltage very little current. nobody got a life threatening shock off a jumper unless it was garish and the only piece of attire you wore down the pub

an arc welder is putting out couple of hundred volts at anything from 30 -200 amps

it melts steel.. if it electrocuted you it would burn through the flesh to the core of you bones and you'd be scared for life right through like blackpool in a stick of rock

a car battery at 12 volts and 240 amps can melt a 13 mm ring spanner

so getting a good whack of volts in the spark and with added bonus a bit more current

is a very good thing

HEI conversion is popular in australia on LPG converted classics

LPG cars that never run on petrol often have static CR in the 12-15:1 range. and LPG is hard to set-off

if an HEI with propely gapped plugs and a decent coil can be used for that....you'll have no problem

of course the same kind of thing can be achived with an MSD 6AL or MSD skys-the-limit, but not for so little time and money

whack it in
standard plugs
standard plug gaps
see how it goes
open plug gaps a couple of thou see how it goes
falters farts timing a mile out and runs bad at high rpm then you have your trigger wires back to front or you forgot to bypass the ballast and the module is trying to do a 12volt 7 amp job on an 8 volt supply

Dave
The Greater Knapweed near the Mugwort by the Buckthorn tree is dying
User avatar
Dave81
Posts: 7141
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 10 4:01 pm
Location: Worcestershire

Post by Dave81 »

autofetish wrote:
Dave81 wrote:Cheers Ade/Dave,

Will look at it later (work wont allow Ebay......... :roll: ) :thumbright:
Dave we are expecting a full write up and report of how you get on.
Im next ;)
Oh i will be mate, i shall be starting the Workshop thread on the Dart in the next few weeks and will literally bore you to death with info and how to's/or not, as i'll be documenting everything i do (always wanted a proper project thread)!

With the Dart my issue has been where to start.......Engine, box, diff, body etc.

Well at last, i seem to have found that point and it'll be the 40yr old wiring!

In all honesty i don't trust the car, and feel the only way to build that trust is to work on it bit by bit as a rolling/driving project.

So it won't be at the Nats this year...........but my aim is to get it sorted for 2013!

Anyway back to the topic......

I've been hammering the Web over the last few days looking at as much info as i can regarding the HEI conversion.
For those interested her are some more links to other peoples build's/ how to's..........

http://www.dodgetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=203358

And this so far is one of the best written how to build it posts i've seen so far:
http://www.rowand.net/Shop/Tech/MoparHEIConversion.htm

This will be my first foray into electrics (as if you couldn't tell from my previous posts :roll: ), but the more i read the more confident i feel.

Will be buying soldering iron, wire and those heat reducing sheaths to make sure all connections are done properly!

My next query will be rewiring kits..........But i'll start another thread for that in the next few days!! :thumbright:
Dave Tildesley.....MMA-081
72 Dodge Dart
73 Plymouth Duster - SOLD

I wanna go so FAST i think i'm going to DIE!..........Then i'll shift into second!

"My Car is a work in progress, Probably never gonna get finished, never gonna have the money to Bananarama!!"
User avatar
Charger
Posts: 5235
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 05 11:40 am
Location: Manchester, UK MMA/921

Post by Charger »

Dave999 wrote:get section of angle iron
cut to shape of module
leave tab on the other angle
get big jubilee clip
Dave, do you have a heat sink attached as well, or is the angle iron sufficient??
Dave999 wrote:got to get the wires from the dizzy the right way round or it won't work
if you get the wires the wrong way round, does it damage anything or just not work??

thanks in advance chap :thumbright:
Si
1970 Charger 500
383 | 4bbl | 727 column | PAS | PAB | buckets/buddy - check out my photos HERE

If you don't want another same old brand-new car ... you could be DODGE MATERIAL

1970 Dodge Charger Registry - https://www.1970chargerregistry.com/
User avatar
Dave-R
Posts: 24752
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 04 11:23 pm
Location: Dave Robson lives in Geordieland
Contact:

Post by Dave-R »

If you get the wires the wrong way around the car will missfire when you accelerate or drive up hill.
Post Reply