I am completely with Gavin on this one. You should be able to apply enough force with manual brakes.
However if you are used to power brakes it could be that you are just not standing on it hard enough.
When I first drive my Chally after a few months it takes me a while to get used to pushing the pedal down that hard. I sometimes think I am pushing it hard enough but then when I really think about it and do it I always find I can push harder. After a while I just get used to it and it is no big deal.
Something else you should think about.
The Mopar servo set-up actually reduces the amount of force your foot can apply. This is due to the bell crank system. This system has to be removed when converting to manual brakes (also involves dropping the MC location) so that the force from the brake pedal acts directly onto the master cylinder.
How quickly do you stop?
Moderator: Moderators
Dave, you've saved me posting exactly what I had in mind, I was even going to mention the bell crank!
I don't know who should be more scared - you or me
I don't know who should be more scared - you or me
Gavin Chisholm - 414ci W2 Stroker SmallBlock Panther Pink '71 Challenger convertible - in bits
Car progress can be viewed here
Car progress can be viewed here
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Dave-R
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You also said something I was going to expand on but I forgot.
The down side of a smaller bore M.C. is longer pedal travel.
If like me you like the pedal on the low side anyway it might mean you could hit carpet before the end of the stroke.
A smaller bore size in the master cylinder would make applying the brake easier. The same way that a jack works. As long as the brakes are effective enough for the job as Steve points out. They should be. They stop Hemi Chargers. If not the cause should be found.MrNorm wrote:you could change the calipers or the master cylinder for ones with a different bore size, but again all you'd really be doing would be changing the braking effort - not the capability.
The down side of a smaller bore M.C. is longer pedal travel.
If like me you like the pedal on the low side anyway it might mean you could hit carpet before the end of the stroke.
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Anonymous
Im with Steve on this one, my drums all round, servo assisted, heavier Charger stops way sharper than my front disc, non assisted, lighter Challenger. I havent touched the brakes on my Charger, which has a wrong servo fitted whereas the Chally was constantly being bled and pads being changed to make acceptable. Remote P6 servo good idea, hard to find now but rebuild kits are out there.
Mr Norms therum sounds good, but does it count when youre on the open road and its all about to go belly up!
Mr Norms therum sounds good, but does it count when youre on the open road and its all about to go belly up!
In 17 years of driving my non-servo assisted DRUMS all round Challenger I never had a scary moment through not being able to brake quickly enough. Yes, I very occasionally used two feet on the brake pedal, once or twice had scary fade experiences, but the braking capability was not at all bad.
So, James servo assist drums worked well, my non-servo assist drums worked well - so what's the servo doing! (other than giving an impression of easy braking).
There's no theorem involved! The facts are that your braking ability is determined by the area of friction material against the braking surface, tyres, brake balance and condition, and the pressure applied to the braking surface up to the point of lockup
A servo doesn't affect ANY of those unless you can't get enough pressure to the braking surface to lock up the brakes without one - and if that's the case something is wrong elsewhere.
Personally I prefer to fix root causes rather than paper over the cracks!!
It all comes down to preference - some people prefer the feeling of brakes applying with little force on the pedal, some don't.
If you like servos, by all means fit one - in fact I have one for sale!! (so I'm not doing a good sales job).
If you want better brakes, fix what you have or get bigger discs.
So, James servo assist drums worked well, my non-servo assist drums worked well - so what's the servo doing! (other than giving an impression of easy braking).
There's no theorem involved! The facts are that your braking ability is determined by the area of friction material against the braking surface, tyres, brake balance and condition, and the pressure applied to the braking surface up to the point of lockup
A servo doesn't affect ANY of those unless you can't get enough pressure to the braking surface to lock up the brakes without one - and if that's the case something is wrong elsewhere.
Personally I prefer to fix root causes rather than paper over the cracks!!
It all comes down to preference - some people prefer the feeling of brakes applying with little force on the pedal, some don't.
If you like servos, by all means fit one - in fact I have one for sale!! (so I'm not doing a good sales job).
If you want better brakes, fix what you have or get bigger discs.
Gavin Chisholm - 414ci W2 Stroker SmallBlock Panther Pink '71 Challenger convertible - in bits
Car progress can be viewed here
Car progress can be viewed here
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Anonymous
Well maybe discs on the rear are good if you want to run up the quater mile in reverse
but anyway. I do get a slight fade when i brake initially, if i want to stop quickly i usually press once (it feels a bit spongy but not too much), then once again (it gets harder on the second press) -no innuendo intended here
i think dave is right about the brake fluid, how often do you guys change it in your cars? My discs are ok, there is planty of meat on the pads, but i dont necessarily agree with the overall weight being the be all and end all.
I have driven lorrys that will stop quicker than some cars especially when just doing 30mph, you stand on the brakes when you are unloaded and could end up with a small light brand new micra reading your number plate up real close!
but anyway. I do get a slight fade when i brake initially, if i want to stop quickly i usually press once (it feels a bit spongy but not too much), then once again (it gets harder on the second press) -no innuendo intended here
i think dave is right about the brake fluid, how often do you guys change it in your cars? My discs are ok, there is planty of meat on the pads, but i dont necessarily agree with the overall weight being the be all and end all.
I have driven lorrys that will stop quicker than some cars especially when just doing 30mph, you stand on the brakes when you are unloaded and could end up with a small light brand new micra reading your number plate up real close!
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Dave-R
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Pressing once and then once again to get a hard pedal is a sure sign of a problem and usually indicates air in the system or a leak if I remember right?
The reason lorries stop quick is because they have big brakes designed for heavy loads. As you have found when the lorry is empty it stops really well.
That should tell you something i.e. the heavier the car the bigger the brakes you need.
The reason lorries stop quick is because they have big brakes designed for heavy loads. As you have found when the lorry is empty it stops really well.
That should tell you something i.e. the heavier the car the bigger the brakes you need.
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Anonymous
After a little research, I don't think they are the same James.
The one on the left is what I have and suitable for (at least) 71 E Bodies and B-Bodies, probably later years too.
The one on the right is what I believe the correct 68 Charger booster is.
They don't look interchangeable.
The one on the left is what I have and suitable for (at least) 71 E Bodies and B-Bodies, probably later years too.
The one on the right is what I believe the correct 68 Charger booster is.
They don't look interchangeable.
Gavin Chisholm - 414ci W2 Stroker SmallBlock Panther Pink '71 Challenger convertible - in bits
Car progress can be viewed here
Car progress can be viewed here
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
i'm a bit late on this one !!! what was the exact result here ?? simply arguing over servos vs non servo, or was there a solution ?
i dunno whether pinkie originally had a servo or not, whether the system on her now is simply with a servo removed, or if its set up (?) as a non servo system,
either way, the brakes are poor beyond belief, they somehow got thru the mot, but for my own peice of mind (after filling my pants back in september !) i wanna get to the bottom of it,
the pedal is very spongy, if i press down and hold, the pedal eventually stops just short of the floor, if i pump it a couple of times, then they work, but accelerating from standstill, doing around 80 (ahem.. i mean 60) and having an idiot pull out 50yrds ahead and not floor it, does not leave one feeling very well, nor do you have time to think about pumping them !
stopping after a 120mph run is another thing altogether, last exit for me !!!
back last summer, the guy doing some work for me, and the mot, got an advisory on the mot, he later replaced the fluid and bled it, there's no leaks, and the discs (from memory) are ok, any ideas ??????
ideally i need to get over to the car and have a look myself, but i hate brakes !! i usually lose something ! anyone fancy a day under pinkie showing me what to do ??!!
i dunno whether pinkie originally had a servo or not, whether the system on her now is simply with a servo removed, or if its set up (?) as a non servo system,
either way, the brakes are poor beyond belief, they somehow got thru the mot, but for my own peice of mind (after filling my pants back in september !) i wanna get to the bottom of it,
the pedal is very spongy, if i press down and hold, the pedal eventually stops just short of the floor, if i pump it a couple of times, then they work, but accelerating from standstill, doing around 80 (ahem.. i mean 60) and having an idiot pull out 50yrds ahead and not floor it, does not leave one feeling very well, nor do you have time to think about pumping them !
stopping after a 120mph run is another thing altogether, last exit for me !!!
back last summer, the guy doing some work for me, and the mot, got an advisory on the mot, he later replaced the fluid and bled it, there's no leaks, and the discs (from memory) are ok, any ideas ??????
ideally i need to get over to the car and have a look myself, but i hate brakes !! i usually lose something ! anyone fancy a day under pinkie showing me what to do ??!!
