EU Dragons Den Debate - IN or OUT?

cadboy · Post by **cadboy** » Wed Feb 17, 16 6:21 am

interesting to see the feeling here.

in my heart I want OUT but head says IN due to my job.

morgan · Post by **morgan** » Wed Feb 17, 16 6:37 am

Like almost everything I can vote on I actually know nothing about the subject in any depth ( suspect I am not alone...). Seems to me its mainly based on peoples 'feeling' of national pride or a very small snippet of whatever the media have said that happens to ring true...
Its a bit like that other referendum all over again but this time we are the miserable moany ones.

ANTON · Post by **ANTON** » Wed Feb 17, 16 7:10 am

OUT!!!!

Trigger_Andy · Post by **Trigger_Andy** » Wed Feb 17, 16 8:04 am

I agree with you 100%. Democracy is a myth that fools the plebs into thinking they have free choice when in fact all they are doing is picking a different foot controlled by the same body at each election, the House always wins.

I have not met one person who wishes to remain within the EU, excluding the deranged Socialist SNP voters, but we will remain within the EU because that's what the Elite want. We'll get a few scraps thrown at us that will be watered down within a few months of the vote passing.

Raminduction wrote:Out

But we are fighting a losing battle. We will end up staying in the EU because the elite that really run the country wish to stay in.

Trigger_Andy · Post by **Trigger_Andy** » Wed Feb 17, 16 8:06 am

Typical of an IN voter. Shut down all debate on the matter.?;)

MilesnMiles wrote:In, but I wish the mods would delete this thread before it goes to Bananarama!

Blue · Post by **Blue** » Wed Feb 17, 16 8:38 am

Like Morgan, I don't know enough about the subject to have a well informed opinion. Listening to the money men in the city, as many seem to say we must stay in as say we must get out. Would it be economic suicide to come out? has the world changed to such a point that as a small island we can't go back to how we were before? How does the average man in the street benefit if at all from us being in? I don't know the answers to any of that. So the ill informed little englander in me says lets get out and take our chances.

Pete · Post by **Pete** » Wed Feb 17, 16 8:41 am

Stirring the pot again, Andy?

Until the MB Guidelines are infringed there will be no action on this thread from the Committee.

The minute they are broken the delete key will be unleashed.

Play nicely.

latil · Post by **latil** » Wed Feb 17, 16 8:49 am

I'd urge anyone who's not sure to take a look at our powers of jurisdiction regarding law making. Over 75% of current UK law has been forced on us by Europe,a totally un elected governing body. Current point,the new REACH regs which ban the import of all the paints we need to restore our cars. Also don't forget a recent EU ruling meant we can't get our tyres from America. Just a couple of things from an endless list that affects our way of life in all spheres,not just cars. Even your basic garden weedkiller has been banned,there is only one (useless) option left there.

MilesnMiles · Post by **MilesnMiles** » Wed Feb 17, 16 9:01 am

Andy, I must be the only bloke who has had a job that has given me some 'expertise' in over twenty years in which people assume I'm wrong because they don't agree with a point of view.
Would I argue with Dunc about transmissions? No
Would I argue with Pete W about building, antiques etc..No
Would I argue with Latil about engineering. Nope
No, I ve just lectured in Politics for over two decades and I know nothing of course....
Morgan is right in my view ; people make judgements based on a certain set of precepts usually based on their own experience/context etc...as you might expect. That is their right.
I have no such 'gut' reaction, I'm simply interested in the facts and how I think it would effect my own future and that of the country at large.
I know more than most. Sorry that just true. Does it mean I'm right? No, such are the joys of democracy (as it should be), but I refer you to Winston Churchill's famous maxim about spending 5 minutes with e average voter.
Part 1

Trigger_Andy · Post by **Trigger_Andy** » Wed Feb 17, 16 9:08 am

No actually. :/

Pete wrote:Stirring the pot again, Andy?

Until the MB Guidelines are infringed there will be no action on this thread from the Committee.

The minute they are broken the delete key will be unleashed.

Play nicely.

Dom66 · Post by **Dom66** » Wed Feb 17, 16 9:19 am

Out, without question.

Having said that, be under no delusion that things will change significantly. We'll still have close trade relations with the EU and will have to comply with most of the major legislation and pay them loads of money for this to continue, like the the relationship Norway and others on the outside have now.

Hopefully though, it will be enough for us to keep our own legislatory control regarding some homeland stuff including vehicular regulations.

My big concern is, despite the massive vocal support for out, there will be thousands of quiet, scared, uncertain folk at home in the dark who will vote for the status quo. Probably what happened with the Scottish vote.

If we lose and stay in, I suspect a long period of 'punishment' tactics from the EU which will screw us even more.

MilesnMiles · Post by **MilesnMiles** » Wed Feb 17, 16 9:21 am

Part 2
http://researchbriefings.files.parliame ... P10-62.pdf

Approx 7% of primary law unless there's been a major jump since 2010!

Lots of rain and I'm off work today so happy to talk civilly with anyone.

Problems with EU in my opinion;
No trans-European mandate
Lack of internal checks and balances/accountability
Too many staff
Too much potential (some would say actual..) power over member state national sovereignty
A naive approach to free exchange of goods and people - the latter is the problem, not the former. We call it immigration.

Benefits
Erm,,,free exchange of goods and people
Standardisation of quality requirements in certain fields of activity
Not going to war with each other
Rather useful trading arrangement

So, I'm 'in' for the benefits but fully recognise a project that has outreached itself to the point where many Europeans question the reach of the EU and its final destination.
Another point: many of the former Soviet satellite bloc countries joined the EU to escape the reach of Russia and embrace democratic principles. Some of these countries Hungary and Poland for example are looking back to more authoritarian forms of government with a weird conjunction of soviet authoritarianism and right wing nationalism. As long as they are member of the EU there are checks on how far these countries can go in this direction. No EU and that pesky Russina bear will have some new (old) friends to play with

Trigger_Andy · Post by **Trigger_Andy** » Wed Feb 17, 16 9:25 am

You are obviously very clued up on the subject Miles and it would be great to get your views and opinions:)

There is also very many well informed people who have the complete opposite opinion to you. From what I've read I'm inclined to favour their opinion as it seems most logical to me.

Dom66 · Post by **Dom66** » Wed Feb 17, 16 9:31 am

MilesnMiles wrote:Part 2
http://researchbriefings.files.parliame ... P10-62.pdf

Approx 7% of primary law unless there's been a major jump since 2010!

Lots of rain and I'm off work today so happy to talk civilly with anyone.

Problems with EU in my opinion;
No trans-European mandate
Lack of internal checks and balances/accountability
Too many staff
Too much potential (some would say actual..) power over member state national sovereignty
A naive approach to free exchange of goods and people - the latter is the problem, not the former. We call it immigration.

Benefits
Erm,,,free exchange of goods and people
Standardisation of quality requirements in certain fields of activity
Not going to war with each other
Rather useful trading arrangement

So, I'm 'in' for the benefits but fully recognise a project that has outreached itself to the point where many Europeans question the reach of the EU and its final destination.
Another point: many of the former Soviet satellite bloc countries joined the EU to escape the reach of Russia and embrace democratic principles. Some of these countries Hungary and Poland for example are looking back to more authoritarian forms of government with a weird conjunction of soviet authoritarianism and right wing nationalism. As long as they are member of the EU there are checks on how far these countries can go in this direction. No EU and that pesky Russina bear will have some new (old) friends to play with

For me, the benefits you list are far outweighed by the major and fundamental issues of lack of democratic authority you touch on as problems.

MilesnMiles · Post by **MilesnMiles** » Wed Feb 17, 16 9:55 am

Dom, you may well be right ( there isn't a right/wrong on this, just opinion), my concern is a complex one that would take pages of writing or a ten minute conversation.
In very brief it runs alongside the idea that Britain has not been a nation to withdraw from international engagement and I genuinely fear that turning back the clock to some 'Little Englander' mentality will do us no favours in a globalised world. The idea that we could exist in some political vacuum maybe attractive, but I don't think it serves us well in the long run.

Whilst in the EU we still have influence and reform of the EU although difficult is actually possible (difficult, but possible); a number of the member states are also concerned about erosion of sovereignty.
The problem with referendums is that they massively over simplify matters that are multi layered.
Compare it to our cars; do we sell the car because Mopar was dumb enough to put everything on one side of the engine bay making it a pain in the Arsenal to work on? Nope, we deal with it and remain reflective about the strengths/weaknesses of the car as a whole.
Same with the EU. I'm no advocate for it, its just that on the balance I think we gain more than we lose. In total. But I still recognisie the problems associated with the project and in particular people's concerns with unlimited EU migration to an overcrowded, small island.