small block stroker kits
Moderator: Moderators
Gotta go with Blue here - there is nothing wrong with Chinese part just because they are Chinese. They can manufacture as well as anyone else.
Is there anything wrong with cheap parts, that is the real question? If you buy wisely and appropriately for your application and in full knowledge, no there isn't. I have read a LOT of opinions on CAT, SCAT, Eagle and other Chinese cranks, rods etc, and also American parts. There is no blanket rule that says cheap=junk, expensive=quality. Do the research, ask around and decide on the best route. Some have good stories, some have bad.
Getting to the specifics....first of all the MP 4" crank is cast STEEL, not cast iron. (not that there is anything wrong with cast iron either). It's good for 500HP, plenty of people using them and personally I've never heard of a failure. OK, if you put 300HP of nitrous through it on top of a 500HP motor it will probably blow - what do you expect? If you want a 600+ HP motor use a forged crank, they are available for a few hundred $$ more.
SCAT or Eagle H-Beams are good for 500HP too.
Nothing wrong with the KB pistons either, nitrous or 500HP might be on their edge though.
I went with CP forged pistons, beautiful pieces. Why? Mainly because I needed a custom piston to get the right compression ratio (really so should you), and if you are into custom pistons it's forged really.
MP cast crank, no worries
Ray Barton rods (H-Beams). Wow, quality pieces, must have been $$$ right? No, Rays own branded rods are made by SCAT!! There's a man with plenty of experience, he obviously does not agree they are junk!!
Check everything dimensionally to be sure.
You can get balanced kits from everyone and his uncle - Mancini, Hughes (no thanks), Hensley (yes), etc etc.
Only other thought is you will be restricting your power with stock heads, even the magnums. You can still make the power, but they will be the weak link.
Is there anything wrong with cheap parts, that is the real question? If you buy wisely and appropriately for your application and in full knowledge, no there isn't. I have read a LOT of opinions on CAT, SCAT, Eagle and other Chinese cranks, rods etc, and also American parts. There is no blanket rule that says cheap=junk, expensive=quality. Do the research, ask around and decide on the best route. Some have good stories, some have bad.
Getting to the specifics....first of all the MP 4" crank is cast STEEL, not cast iron. (not that there is anything wrong with cast iron either). It's good for 500HP, plenty of people using them and personally I've never heard of a failure. OK, if you put 300HP of nitrous through it on top of a 500HP motor it will probably blow - what do you expect? If you want a 600+ HP motor use a forged crank, they are available for a few hundred $$ more.
SCAT or Eagle H-Beams are good for 500HP too.
Nothing wrong with the KB pistons either, nitrous or 500HP might be on their edge though.
I went with CP forged pistons, beautiful pieces. Why? Mainly because I needed a custom piston to get the right compression ratio (really so should you), and if you are into custom pistons it's forged really.
MP cast crank, no worries
Ray Barton rods (H-Beams). Wow, quality pieces, must have been $$$ right? No, Rays own branded rods are made by SCAT!! There's a man with plenty of experience, he obviously does not agree they are junk!!
Check everything dimensionally to be sure.
You can get balanced kits from everyone and his uncle - Mancini, Hughes (no thanks), Hensley (yes), etc etc.
Only other thought is you will be restricting your power with stock heads, even the magnums. You can still make the power, but they will be the weak link.
Gavin Chisholm - 414ci W2 Stroker SmallBlock Panther Pink '71 Challenger convertible - in bits
Car progress can be viewed here
Car progress can be viewed here
-
Anonymous
Whats the point of it all when piston heights can be 10 thou different, rod lengths all different and both holes out of round?? so you ream the holes which on the big end makes it shorter, and everyone puts in the head gasket thickness to calc compression ratio, why? when the pistons, rods etc are way out, 10 thou difference on a couple of piston heights and you may as well not bother.
Crank journals all different, tapered, out of round etc to such an extent that several bearing sets are needed IF you want all the same clearances
To build a motor properly IE blueprinted so all the measurements are the same would cost a fortune just in extra machining, if you just want to slap it together and hope for the best then go for it... The first thing in building a good motor is to make sure all cylinders are as near to equal as is possible among other things
MP you have to be joking right??
Crank journals all different, tapered, out of round etc to such an extent that several bearing sets are needed IF you want all the same clearances
To build a motor properly IE blueprinted so all the measurements are the same would cost a fortune just in extra machining, if you just want to slap it together and hope for the best then go for it... The first thing in building a good motor is to make sure all cylinders are as near to equal as is possible among other things
MP you have to be joking right??
-
Dave-R
- Posts: 24752
- Joined: Sun Apr 18, 04 11:23 pm
- Location: Dave Robson lives in Geordieland
- Contact:
Well I have checked my chinky crank and pistons very very carefully and they are the most accurate bits I have ever bought for the car. Can't fault them. Every spec spot on. Give or take one or two 10,000ths of an inch.
It is usually the American bits that need the work. That is engine bits and reproduction parts as well. That didn't use to be the case.
One of the reasons I got into these cars was because the US bits were cheap and well made. That just is not the case these days. They are letting their own team down.
It is usually the American bits that need the work. That is engine bits and reproduction parts as well. That didn't use to be the case.
One of the reasons I got into these cars was because the US bits were cheap and well made. That just is not the case these days. They are letting their own team down.
Where and who makes these poor parts Wil? I have built engines for customers with Eagle parts and they were perfect, certainly nothing like 10 thou out. Ray Bartons use stuff made in China and they are in the field for most SS rounds etc.
Every motor part needs checking and I don't care who's it is, some will need massaging.
Every motor part needs checking and I don't care who's it is, some will need massaging.
-
Jon Benn
OK so its not tunning parts, but I deal with both China and America on a daily basis, and you get faulty product in batches from both areas, it isnt anything to do with manufacturing processes or cost of labour, and the raw materials are the same, it all comes down to how good the QA inspector is feeling and what they let out on the day. If you recieve parts from any supplier with a passes QA label on them and they are incorrect send them back and demand FOC replacements.
-
Anonymous
Knowing quite a bit about Ray Bartons i've no doubt he does but I will say not in the high HP motors and thats fact cos I shelled out ?12k to buy one, also he has all the machinery in house to put it all right, which by the way the guy that is doing the purchasing pays for.
All i'm saying is looking at costs the difference would be around ?300 by the time everything is here, probably not when compared to a cast crank admittedly, but against material for material the Callies cranks, Oliver Rods and Diamond pistons etc the difference isn't much.
Don't get me wrong, we can supply CAT, SCAT, Eagle even stock refurbed by the boat load no problem but for a little more it's possible to get a rotating assembly that will take high HP and be reliable, but after saying that after a certain point it's then the block thats the weak bit.
Take the Callies stuff, if you ordered a crank today you would be on a waiting list, this has nothing to do with us being in a different country it's because all the good engine builders in the states have them on backorder all the time also they are not mass produced
All i'm saying is looking at costs the difference would be around ?300 by the time everything is here, probably not when compared to a cast crank admittedly, but against material for material the Callies cranks, Oliver Rods and Diamond pistons etc the difference isn't much.
Don't get me wrong, we can supply CAT, SCAT, Eagle even stock refurbed by the boat load no problem but for a little more it's possible to get a rotating assembly that will take high HP and be reliable, but after saying that after a certain point it's then the block thats the weak bit.
Take the Callies stuff, if you ordered a crank today you would be on a waiting list, this has nothing to do with us being in a different country it's because all the good engine builders in the states have them on backorder all the time also they are not mass produced
-
Anonymous
"It is usually the American bits that need the work. That is engine bits and reproduction parts as well. That didn't use to be the case.
One of the reasons I got into these cars was because the US bits were cheap and well made. That just is not the case these days. They are letting their own team down."
I think Dave you've just answered the question, there are still some American companies that produce good quality in house, and there are some that source from China and still manage to end up with a good product, but there is a lot that don't.
And don't start me on MP, I bought an MP Siamese block, according to Barton the best thing sinced sliced, how come then he charged me a fortune to true it up, what was it made of? RUBBER, yes some finishing work but how much??? admittedly it was one of the last before MP pulled the plug on that particular foundry
this is going to get interesting
One of the reasons I got into these cars was because the US bits were cheap and well made. That just is not the case these days. They are letting their own team down."
I think Dave you've just answered the question, there are still some American companies that produce good quality in house, and there are some that source from China and still manage to end up with a good product, but there is a lot that don't.
And don't start me on MP, I bought an MP Siamese block, according to Barton the best thing sinced sliced, how come then he charged me a fortune to true it up, what was it made of? RUBBER, yes some finishing work but how much??? admittedly it was one of the last before MP pulled the plug on that particular foundry
this is going to get interesting
So, where are Comp Cams made?
I've built shedloads of engines over the years and the Comp Cam and roller timing set I installed in the Runner is the most accurately machined aftermarket cam I've ever seen.
It was within a tenth of a thou on the dial on every lobe...now that's quality in my book...though my dad who was a proper engineer wouldn't necessarily agree, when he was asked by a customer what sort of tolerances he worked to he said he didn't, he gets it cock on!
So back to the point, Comp Cams, America or China?
I've built shedloads of engines over the years and the Comp Cam and roller timing set I installed in the Runner is the most accurately machined aftermarket cam I've ever seen.
It was within a tenth of a thou on the dial on every lobe...now that's quality in my book...though my dad who was a proper engineer wouldn't necessarily agree, when he was asked by a customer what sort of tolerances he worked to he said he didn't, he gets it cock on!
So back to the point, Comp Cams, America or China?
Problem is the Amerians want perfect product for next to nothing, it has killed there manufacturing base same as happened here, they have to buy stuff from the cheapest source and that is now China, then they moan the bits are not made in America..
Thing is the Chinese have invested in the latest machinery and can blast parts out like no tomorrow and accuratly as well, I agree the American stuff gets more attention as a rule whith finishing but then the price goes up and no one buys it, they buy Eagle type stuff and get their own machine shops to finish to the spec they want.
All my engine parts go on the machines, American/chinese whatever and most all need finishing.
The M.P. blocks are pants, it is well known that they suffer from core shift etc etc last I heard 1 in 8 was useable after being sonic'd for thickness, anyway if you want to go fast new blocks are no good you need seasoned stuff.
I have yet to see a repro part for a Mopar that has been correct, take the time and find good used if you can.
Some of the parts you need to find U.S. made are bearings and joints, the Chinese have not worked these out yet, Timken and the like are excellent, pattern Chinese are junk.
Thing is the Chinese have invested in the latest machinery and can blast parts out like no tomorrow and accuratly as well, I agree the American stuff gets more attention as a rule whith finishing but then the price goes up and no one buys it, they buy Eagle type stuff and get their own machine shops to finish to the spec they want.
All my engine parts go on the machines, American/chinese whatever and most all need finishing.
The M.P. blocks are pants, it is well known that they suffer from core shift etc etc last I heard 1 in 8 was useable after being sonic'd for thickness, anyway if you want to go fast new blocks are no good you need seasoned stuff.
I have yet to see a repro part for a Mopar that has been correct, take the time and find good used if you can.
Some of the parts you need to find U.S. made are bearings and joints, the Chinese have not worked these out yet, Timken and the like are excellent, pattern Chinese are junk.
-
Anonymous
Ok Dave, knowing MP that block may have been mexico, most MP stuff now have that on them.
Here's a Q where's the Indy Max ally block made, now this isn't a trick Q cos I don't know, I would take a short email to find out but maybe you know??
I bet thats straighter than the MP siamese
Ivor i've no idea where that cam is made
Here's a Q where's the Indy Max ally block made, now this isn't a trick Q cos I don't know, I would take a short email to find out but maybe you know??
I bet thats straighter than the MP siamese
Ivor i've no idea where that cam is made
-
Anonymous
I just don't see how all this fits together
On the one hand American cars are great, narrow it down somewhat and Mopar is "the" way, then on the other repro is great, I'm a little too black and white for that.
there is excellent quality american or canadian made parts, some of these guys are actually still enthutiasts that take pride in what they are doing.
Me if I ring my bank I get through to someone that hasn't a clue, is at least 4000 miles away and they don't give a monkeys, now that really does pull my chain, no difference to anything else whether it be parts for a mopar or a washing machine, it's just down to ?? and no one gives a monkeys
take a look here http://cuda66273.proboards23.com/index. ... 1103134689
On the one hand American cars are great, narrow it down somewhat and Mopar is "the" way, then on the other repro is great, I'm a little too black and white for that.
there is excellent quality american or canadian made parts, some of these guys are actually still enthutiasts that take pride in what they are doing.
Me if I ring my bank I get through to someone that hasn't a clue, is at least 4000 miles away and they don't give a monkeys, now that really does pull my chain, no difference to anything else whether it be parts for a mopar or a washing machine, it's just down to ?? and no one gives a monkeys
take a look here http://cuda66273.proboards23.com/index. ... 1103134689