EU Dragons Den Debate - IN or OUT?

[Charger]

OUT!!!!!

[Dave999]

we need to stay in

with a greatly reduced manufacturing base in this country, huge swathes of our GDP come from financial services.

even if we still had a heavy industry nobody could afford what we produced.

for big multinationals and banks we are the only sane place in Europe to be based. Stable government, sensible bank of England, reasonably sane population, few war mongering tendencies, limited trade union input and lax on the old tax.

great place to get access to the nutters across the sea, down and bit and to the right

if they go we are not in a good place.....

we just need to grow some balls and bend the rules like all the rest of them

we abide by the rules of the EU. and get abuse when we don't from countries that blatantly don't play fair

the French for example.

they cap the cost of electricity and gas to their customers, anti competition smacks of a monopoly with gov't interference.
so their companies use the UK as a cash cow to support the French infrastructure.

EDF charges UK customers way more than French customers for the same services because there is a Law in France limiting the cost and profit that can be made.

when we tender for new trains we follow the rules. the best EU based deal wins often to the detriment of UK suppliers. because it costs more to make stuff here.

however in France a French company always wins and in Germany a German company always wins. weird that given that they are supposed to accept tenders from all over Europe and choose the best deal.


both France and Germany had foot and mouth... did they burn all their livestock??? NO

but could we export any lamb or beef

NO.


we need to stay in and make their lives a misery Hold them all to account


Dave





I don't see the Empire being willing to become trade partners that quickly again after we binned them off the in 70s.



The French are looking to scupper Cameron's current Plans this week.
Not because they don't like the idea, but because their president will lose the next election if their economy doesn't pick up.
By forcing Cameron to back down they know the UK will vote "OUT" and the city of London will move to Paris

don't play into the hands of the Frenchies

[MilesnMiles]

Dave, love it. Pithy, informed and funny. :
As we've come to expect

[Dom66]

Dom, you may well be right ( there isn't a right/wrong on this, just opinion), my concern is a complex one that would take pages of writing or a ten minute conversation.
In very brief it runs alongside the idea that Britain has not been a nation to withdraw from international engagement and I genuinely fear that turning back the clock to some 'Little Englander' mentality will do us no favours in a globalised world. The idea that we could exist in some political vacuum maybe attractive, but I don't think it serves us well in the long run.

Whilst in the EU we still have influence and reform of the EU although difficult is actually possible (difficult, but possible); a number of the member states are also concerned about erosion of sovereignty.
The problem with referendums is that they massively over simplify matters that are multi layered.
Compare it to our cars; do we sell the car because Mopar was dumb enough to put everything on one side of the engine bay making it a pain in the Arsenal to work on? Nope, we deal with it and remain reflective about the strengths/weaknesses of the car as a whole.
Same with the EU. I'm no advocate for it, its just that on the balance I think we gain more than we lose. In total. But I still recognisie the problems associated with the project and in particular people's concerns with unlimited EU migration to an overcrowded, small island.

Mate, you are spot on about the complexities, I guess I just go the other way and trust my gut. For me the biggest issue is increased legislation, attempts to standardise and control humanity in all its forms. It's the old globalism/tribalism argument, but we are all tribal deep down, I think we need to accept this and even revel in it whilst keeping the bigger global picture in mind.

Corruption, commercial and political interests etc will always be an issue, I also think we stand a better chance against them when they are limited by different governaces, rather than being allowed to set in to a larger power block that no on will ever be able to properly understand or police.

[latil]

The first muted "Common Market" in the 1950s' was a good idea where each country could trade freely with the others with no customs problems.
The issue started with influences from large companies getting positions of power within the EU. This has led to new rules on common standards which,in many cases have been unattainable within a given timescale leading to UK manufacturers going out of business. A raft of chemical rules came out,UK producers had difficulty meeting them,the Germans already had an alternative. A couple of German chemical giants bought up our now failing firms,removed products from sale,only to re introduce them 2 years later at vastly inflated prices. The latest row with VW and others over emissions is because eurocrats are now setting unattainable emissions figures with no reference to physics.
The EU is a communist organisation at heart,very similar in structure to the old Russia,where central control by a few is the ultimate aim at the expense of the population.

[Steve]

Interesting thread and, if Im brutally honest, Im too thick to form a sound, educated opinion, based on knowledge and fact, on what is good or bad for our great country. Its such a huge subject, with so many permutations/ implications that I really cant get my head round it......I, stupidly or not, rely on the people we have elected to power, to make those decisions on my behalf.

Im pretty sure there will be some ulterior motives on both sides of the debate but that's just politics in my eye.....clever people, arguing with clever people over stuff that I don't really understand.

My worry is that if we become independent from the EU, we will ALL have to pull together for the greater good of OUR country. I don't think this will happen. I think the complexion of our country has changed so much that we are not geared up to think like an independent population, solely interested in looking after ourselves. Most of us don't even know the people who live 3 doors away etc so how will we act if the pressure is on for us to sink or swim? Just look at how the internet revolution has made us all interact on a one to one basis with the rest of the world. Its awesome! I have friends all over the place now, just through expanding my horizons beyond my front door.

If it made the difference, would we ALL support our local farmers to the exclusion of cheap products from Europe to keep OUR economy afloat??? Or, would we avoid the overpriced farm shop that's 10 miles away and buy our French fruit from Morrisons for half the price?

I know we are perceived as being a 'super power' who punches above its weight in the Worlds economic arena. Would this last if we were out or would we just be another small Island that lives on the fact it was once the centre of the industrial revolution??

I think its all a knee jerk reaction to the huge increase in immigrants flooding to the EU from the devastation in Syria. Im willing to bet that if the sorry situation in the Middle East was cured over night and no one wanted to come to the safe haven of our shores, we probably wouldn't be having this debate.

Just my opinion men, and certainly not put together with even a tiny fraction of knowledge and expertise that Miles has, so Im hoping to learn a bit from this one! I certainly don't want to throw a dart at a dartboard when Im given the hard earned opportunity to express my opinion at the ballot box when it comes,

Cheers Steve

[Blue]

This could be a really interesting discussion if it stays on track. A popular theme with the out camp seems to be EU laws and immigration. Do you really think much would change on those 2 issues if we were out? (Personally I don't) or would it be any more palatable if they were our elected governments' policys rather than an EU dictat?

[MilesnMiles]

Latin, I agree ref the 'common market' and likewise your thoughts in the role of big business.
However, got to draw the line at the communist reference because it's unhelpful and some what dramatic!

The EU suffers from a democratic deficit ( that is the correct term) that needs rectifying (see discussions on pooled sovereignty etc,,), and Indeed it is monolithic in a similar way to the state socialist bureaucracies of the Soviet Union and China. That is where the comparison ends. The EU despite its faults cannot be compared to communist central planning such as the Great Leap Forward or the various Five Year Plans all of which were central dictates that led to great human waste. The EU doesn't have secret police and death camps (yet ) either.
The real issue is a classic of all buraeuacracies and policy making; each actor in the process has a reason to rationalise and justify what they are doing and this leads to ever expanding realms of policy being invented and justified none of which voters ever had any say in. This is true of any western liberal democracy including our own 'Westminster Village' mentality.

Oh and Steve (Polara) , yes the Middle East and fears of terrorism by stealth, mass migration are the current players in many voters thinking. It's understandable too, but how many voters are aware that we also have obligations under our membership of the UN regarding accepting refugees? Not so many I'll wager.
As I keep saying. Very, very complex issue with multiple strands of argument to follow.

[Steve]

Not sure if I got this right but I read the Communist quote as meaning that the EU works for the greater good of all rather than to benefit single enterprise (on a national scale) ie......we all end up on a level playing field regardless of whether we put the least amount or most into the system? We put more than our fair share in, Greece puts less in but the aim is that we are both equal in the end. Is this similar to the basic concept of Communism?

Did I get the wrong end of the stick (my head hurts )

Cheers Steve

[MilesnMiles]

Steve, I don't want to misquote Latil, but I read it as the EU runs as an elite by an elite with no concerns abaout the average punter.
As for your latter point you are correct. It was the intention that all member states would benefit from mutual growth which is why some states (Spain, Portugal, Greece, Ireland) benefited more than we France or Germany did in terms of direct cost paid per citizen.
Of course what screwed those countries was not the EU, but catastrophicly bad management by their own government; the Irish were utterly screwed by the banks and the people have been paying (literally) for it ever since. In Spain and Portugal over
Investment coupled with corrupt local politics has led to all sorts of misery as it seemed the good days would never end.
But they have.

[latil]

Original aim,and probably still current, is that the EU would have administration areas where each country and government became no more than a fancy district council to run things in that area whilst all laws and actual government happened in Brussels. We are not far short of that ideal now. We have a benefit system,our govt can't alter it unless all other nations agree. Fishermen cannot fish in our own territorial waters or catch to much/wrong things. The amount of red tape in every area of farming favours only the big business owned farming conglomerates,not our own farmers. None of this can be changed by our own government.

[MilesnMiles]

Ironic then that one of the key principles of the Maastricht treaty which created the current EU was'subsidiarity'which means that member state governments were to remain the principle creators and implementers of policy.
I must confess that i do find that border controls are not in the hands of nation states as a form of madness.
It's a bit like Canada telling the US that they will set US immigration policy, but I digress

[Steve]

Thanks for clarifying men....all very interesting stuff!

[MrNorm]

Very interesting, I don’t have a settled position but emotionally I’m definitely an ‘Out’ (doesn’t necessarily mean to say that’s what I would vote for…) Even if you leave aside the ‘current’ issues of mass immigration etc, I’m more concerned with the long term – as far as I can see the EU ‘project’ is on the route to failure. It’s a clearly stated intention for ‘ever closer’ political union, so if we stay in, that’s what we’ll get, and I don’t want that. I want to be part of a strong European trading community, cooperating where mutually beneficial on intra-Europe policing/crime, military (to a limited degree) etc. I do NOT want to be part of a US of EU, with some unaccountable bureaucrats making decisions that we can and should be making ourselves. Basically we need to be our ultimate authority. The Euro is a textbook example of the ‘European dream’ - an ill-conceived naive dream that is heading down the pan rapidly, yet rather than lose face and admit it is fundamentally flawed, the people whose life’s dream it was just bury their head in the sand and pretend that everything will be fine if we just integrate even more. That is the kind of behaviour we’ll get if they don’t fundamentally reform it (my preferred option), but that political elite that was mentioned seem very unlikely to give up that fantasy, in which case we might regrettably be better off out. Trouble is, then we are relying on the UK government to get it right, and that is not exactly a safe bet either……………

[Dave81]

If we voted out tomorrow.......
Do we really think that our economy would fail overnight?
Do you think people would stop buying British products?
Would we all of a sudden change all the things implemented by Brussels and not London?
Would Immigration halt overnight?
Would millions on non UK citizens get deported?
ETC ETC ETC

I'm gonna guess that all the above and more will come back as no.

What I would hope is that we can stop people claiming child benefit for a child that's not even in the UK...........

It was interesting last year watching elections in other countries.
Both German and French parties that are anti EU have rocketed in support in the last few years.

Be interesting to watch it all unfold as we are not the only ones who are not happy with the current setup.......I wonder if the UK may be the first Domino??