Im my opinion this is what happened with the Scottish independence vote. Quite sure it will happen here as well. All the tricks in the book and then some will be pulled out to scaremonger the weak into voting to stay in.
Blue wrote:I think it's a case of the outs being far more vocal rather than being in the majority. I suspect on the day the "I don't know what to do for the best, so better the devil you know" vote will be in the majority.
The whole farm subsidies thing I don't really understand, why is the price of milk etc. being manipulated? who gains from that? I suspect it wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference to anyone here if milk was double the price....
Yes I agree, there will be a lot of talk but on the day people will revert to the devil they know!
BTW, I do have to say that Tata have been incredibly smart with JLR. We supply a lot of high end parts to them and I've spent quite a bit of time working closely with them. I fully expected Tata to ruin them, but they have basically signed the cheques (a LOT of them) and let them run their business - which is just as well as they have grown a great deal and are a real success story. I Don't think they make any engines in India at all, and the vast bulk of ther investment (billions of £ and thousands of jobs in recent years) have been in the UK. So fair play to Tata in this case!
Gavin Chisholm - 414ci W2 Stroker SmallBlock Panther Pink '71 Challenger convertible - in bits Car progress can be viewed here
This is a great discussion and very good read, it is the way it should be all over when they put it for vote.
as has been mentioned the common market was the start and they all agreed to have freedom in sending items around the market (no added taxes)
This is still true and our company (international) with only factory in Europe here, so the company can sell as many machines in EU as it likes, no limit.
But if UK is out then I think the masters will have to move the factory somewhere else in EU. This may be the same with other big names, Nissan, Toyota, Honda, unless they have other factories in Europe.
There is no PERFECT solution, it is the same with selecting our own government on the day, most know what would be best but we choice the one we think will serve us best.
Don't forget that we are already outside the Eurozone, which some told us would be the death of us, and yet our Automotive industry is producing more cars than even in the heyday back in the seventies! Yes, it's all foreign-owned now, which is very sad, but my point is that we've survived and actually thrived outside the Eurozone (relative to those inside!). Whatever it is that we offer that the Eurozone doesn't (deregulation? skills? l don't know) should still be attractive going forwards. As much? Don't know.
Also, IIRC the Eurozone is a nett exporter to the UK, so I don't see them wanting to stop trading anytime soon. So really I doubt anything revolutionary would change whether we leave or stay in, maybe the best result would be that there is a cross-EU groundswell of opinion against the 'Emperors New clothes' denial by the political elite, and we can all get back to being trading neighbours. It seems to me there are some signs this is happening, but again might just fizzle out. Either way as I said, I just can't see the vested interests ever admitting failure, so it's going to take that groundswell of the silent majority. Honestly with all the other crazy political developments in the 'stable' west (eg Corbyn, Trump, Sanders, etc) I wouldn't rule anything out.
Gavin Chisholm - 414ci W2 Stroker SmallBlock Panther Pink '71 Challenger convertible - in bits Car progress can be viewed here
Some businesses will suffer ,some will flourish when the burden of EU bureaucracy is lifted from them ..but you are missing the main point if the EU was the holy grail how come nearly three quarters of its members are bankrupt ?we had a rocky few years but we never put our hand out for a sub ........it's finished and if we go ,which I hope we do I would be surprised to see it fold like a pack of cards .....one thing Pete mentioned a period of peace well Pete nationalism is on the rise throughout Europe ,the right wing parties are growing stronger every day ,why is that ? Could it be that we are not the only people sick of the EUs policies that take no consideration for a countries national identity .......it's finished because it became greedy ..it's in its death and it's only the people that are making a living from it that are desperate to keep it afloat
Jesus saves but satan does that thing with his tongue you like
I think idealistically it is trying to create the "United States of Europe" and you all like the USofA don't you?
However, there are literally 2 thousand years of history and mis-trust to overcome in Europe that the USA never had to contend with, and sadly, the whole governance is very heavy, expensive and a lot more Left wing than was probably envisaged or desired.
I am pretty sure the UK will stay in for all the arguments that have been mentioned on this thread and 100 years or so the population will accept it and wonder what all the fuss was about in the 2000's..... In the concept of time this is all happening at break neck speed but in terms of humans and how they adapt and manage change it is far too fast for many, and the principles are a step too far.
Yes, the same Dave that promised he wouldn't be 'banging on about Europe' a few years ago.
You do realise this is about Tory internal politics don't you? It's been festering since Maastricht when Lord Rees Mogg lost a legal challenge to the legitimacy of that treaty which created the EU and close integration.
I think he's kinda pinned into a corner as far as 'banging on about Europe' goes - isnt it all to do with being duty bound to hold a referendum. Once thats done it'll calm down. Petes right - we'll be wondering what all the fuss was about.
I'm still not finding it half as irritating as the scottish one got though. That started to get really annoying; even though the stakes are presumably much higher here. Still - there is time I suppose. And I also think the straw poll here is interesting; clearly massively leaning to 'out'. Might it come down to that ? How many people like me are there who at least know they dont understand it - so likely wont vote on it ? Thats the time when a vocal minority might actually have a chance...
It will be interesting to watch how this unfolds. He still has to face the vote even once concessions agreed.
Well I certainly don't know enough to be confident I'm making the right choice, but I will go with my gut and vote anyway. I always vote it's one of our greatest freedoms we have and apathy is not an option.
As Blue says, plus at a certain margin of error there would be a recount.
Just for fun, referendums are not binding in this country; they are a consultative process although I don't think the government would dare ignore the result, but they could. They could also insist on a qualified majority vote l.e. 55% although I know of no plans for this. That way you get a real majority. The idea of a 51% is very close for such a significant decision.
Another thought, say there is a narrow 'out' vote, the government then gets a significantly better deal than anything on the current proposals and goes back to the people for a second referendum.
It has happened elsewhere, notably in Iteland some years back on aEuropean issue.
All the tricks in the book and then some will be pulled out to scaremonger the weak into voting to stay in. 
