So a few of you guys might have seen i recently purchased a 71 duster. Its great so far, looking forward to when the parts arrive and i can get stuck into the refurb, a little something is troubling me though.
When i bought the car the bloke told me that you need to let it warm up for a bit on cold start, pump a bit of gas etc and rev it a little to get it warmer. Now this has only happened twice now but ive let it warm up, sat on the drive for 5 minutes maybe, driven off and at the end of the road it has stalled, now this is a 3 speed 727 and i didnt think stalling was really an issue in an auto. Again though im not really familiar with all the workings of old cars like this.
Is this normal, its kind of annoying to have to sit on the drive for up to 10 minutes if i want to go out in the car. The car also runs quite hot too, and if i go on a prolonged drive (more than 30 minutes or so) the rad bubbles over, now i have a cap with the overflow on it but none of it seem to go into the overflow, would it be a case of the overflow is clogged or something?
Cheers
Chris
Unsure if a problem or normal with an old car
Moderator: Moderators
I think Drew is spot on, you just have to work through a few things to eliminate the problem.
Ignition Timing is always a favourite, followed by (lack of) Fuel pump shot - lean bog, and carb tuning in general.
What is the ignition timing currently set at?
What carb has the car got?
Pete
Ignition Timing is always a favourite, followed by (lack of) Fuel pump shot - lean bog, and carb tuning in general.
What is the ignition timing currently set at?
What carb has the car got?
Pete
Pete Wiseman; Cambridge.
Mopar by the grace of God
Mopar by the grace of God
To try and answer your question in simple terms, our old cars have thier quirks, and here's why.
To use modern terminolgy, cars these days are smart, they have sensors to moniter all sorts of things so it knows what's going on and an electronic system to alter the fuel and ignition system to suit. The end result, you turn the key and the car runs pretty much the same in any situation.
Our old cars on the other hand are thick, they know almost nothing of the situation it's being operated in and has limited capability to respond to it.
For this reason tuning is very important, it will not tune itself. You tune with the engine at operating temperature because that's where it spends most of it's time, so it's a compromise, at any other temperature the tune is less than optimum and this is where the quirks come in, cold stalling can be a problem.
Once the car is running correctly, it will be better but the problem won't totally disapeer.
To use modern terminolgy, cars these days are smart, they have sensors to moniter all sorts of things so it knows what's going on and an electronic system to alter the fuel and ignition system to suit. The end result, you turn the key and the car runs pretty much the same in any situation.
Our old cars on the other hand are thick, they know almost nothing of the situation it's being operated in and has limited capability to respond to it.
For this reason tuning is very important, it will not tune itself. You tune with the engine at operating temperature because that's where it spends most of it's time, so it's a compromise, at any other temperature the tune is less than optimum and this is where the quirks come in, cold stalling can be a problem.
Once the car is running correctly, it will be better but the problem won't totally disapeer.
“It’s good enough for Nancy”
Mine is similar but only needs to run for about 3 or 4 minutes before it will tick over on its own, but the choke doesnt work on my car.
When you think about it, how many newer drivers would even know what a choke is nowadays?
Gone are the days of pulling out the choke control of a Mini so that your nan could hang her handbag on it.
When you think about it, how many newer drivers would even know what a choke is nowadays?
Gone are the days of pulling out the choke control of a Mini so that your nan could hang her handbag on it.
Matt Hollingsworth - Vehicle Registrar
Panther Pink 73 Aussie Charger 265 Hemi 4 spd
Challenger Sam Posey Tribute car
Panther Pink 73 Aussie Charger 265 Hemi 4 spd
Challenger Sam Posey Tribute car
Funnily enough had that conversation yesterday. Cars ALWAYS start and run the same when cold as hot. Stop when braking round corners hard etc etc - the list goes on.MattH wrote:Mine is similar but only needs to run for about 3 or 4 minutes before it will tick over on its own, but the choke doesnt work on my car.
When you think about it, how many newer drivers would even know what a choke is nowadays?
Gone are the days of pulling out the choke control of a Mini so that your nan could hang her handbag on it.
I dont have a choke either on the charger - just decided not to bother. Splutters a bit for the first 10 secs. After a couple of mins its fine.
Ref handbag - I always remember my mate had a chevette that ran so lean you had to pull the choke out to overtake. Amazing what we use to put these cars through - never occured to us to 'fix' it - you just drive around the problem.
My old Manta had an auto choke that would flood if engine was warm but carb was cool. If you 'missed' the start you were flooded and that was that. Apparently I found this acceptable ?!?
"Cum homine de cane debeo congredi." Woof.
Current Charger status - "Working and awesome"
Current Charger status - "Working and awesome"
when its cold it runs bad
when its in drive but stopped you are turning over the "Pumping" and "pressurising" bits in the auto box
that takes way more effort from the engine at tickover than sitting in neutral
which spins over less of the heavy "go-forward" machinery in a 727
(you have also just drained your battery starting it, your trip to the end of the road is just enough for your alternator to kick in. and its going to kick in and try to make as much current as possible to charge the battery back up. This makes it very stiff for the engine to turn)
once its warm it makes just a tad more torque at idle and the problem goes away.
you could tweak up the idle speed but that might put you in the situation where once the engine is warm the car creeps at every junction and traffic jam
holding it on the brake in traffic jams is just going to cause your trans fluid to heat up for no reason
i.e it won't just sit still when in drive.
I will jump right in though, and say if you car has the timing set as per 1970
and its distributor has an advance curve as per 1970
you can make it work better with 2016 petrol
it needs more initial advance
and less total advance
more initial is easy
less total is not because putting in more initial advance increases total by the same amount.
it will have a chrysler dizzy
you can get a kit of parts from Turnip on this board that will allow you or any mechanic to restrict total advance in your distributor
so you can set it at about 10* initial and not stray past 34 at 3000 rpm
the total it likes will depend on your head shape
a domed chamber semi hemi or hemi wants less than a wedge shaped chamber.
just had my Dizzy done so I can run 12* BTDC initial and 30 at 3000
have to say its one of the best things ive done
before I could only run 5*BTDC and it would hit 34 at 3000 and the idle was rough until warm and even when warm the RICH smell at idle was enough to kill bushes and trees .
sorting out this issue means you can set the timing properly
then set the idle mix and idle speed
and I recon that at an idle speed of approx. 900 in drive you will have less instances of stalling when cold.
modern petrol that achieves its British standard and RON achieves it by having ethanol and additives added rather than by refining.
it burns slower, it burns hotter, and if left in a alloy carb for 5 years turns to jelly
its not proper petrol like they had in the old days
so you have to accommodate it with a change to the ignition advance curve.
of course modern cars do that automatically hence there is no backlash when changes are made
Dave
when its in drive but stopped you are turning over the "Pumping" and "pressurising" bits in the auto box
that takes way more effort from the engine at tickover than sitting in neutral
which spins over less of the heavy "go-forward" machinery in a 727
(you have also just drained your battery starting it, your trip to the end of the road is just enough for your alternator to kick in. and its going to kick in and try to make as much current as possible to charge the battery back up. This makes it very stiff for the engine to turn)
once its warm it makes just a tad more torque at idle and the problem goes away.
you could tweak up the idle speed but that might put you in the situation where once the engine is warm the car creeps at every junction and traffic jam
holding it on the brake in traffic jams is just going to cause your trans fluid to heat up for no reason
i.e it won't just sit still when in drive.
I will jump right in though, and say if you car has the timing set as per 1970
and its distributor has an advance curve as per 1970
you can make it work better with 2016 petrol
it needs more initial advance
and less total advance
more initial is easy
less total is not because putting in more initial advance increases total by the same amount.
it will have a chrysler dizzy
you can get a kit of parts from Turnip on this board that will allow you or any mechanic to restrict total advance in your distributor
so you can set it at about 10* initial and not stray past 34 at 3000 rpm
the total it likes will depend on your head shape
a domed chamber semi hemi or hemi wants less than a wedge shaped chamber.
just had my Dizzy done so I can run 12* BTDC initial and 30 at 3000
have to say its one of the best things ive done
before I could only run 5*BTDC and it would hit 34 at 3000 and the idle was rough until warm and even when warm the RICH smell at idle was enough to kill bushes and trees .
sorting out this issue means you can set the timing properly
then set the idle mix and idle speed
and I recon that at an idle speed of approx. 900 in drive you will have less instances of stalling when cold.
modern petrol that achieves its British standard and RON achieves it by having ethanol and additives added rather than by refining.
it burns slower, it burns hotter, and if left in a alloy carb for 5 years turns to jelly
its not proper petrol like they had in the old days
so you have to accommodate it with a change to the ignition advance curve.
of course modern cars do that automatically hence there is no backlash when changes are made
Dave
Last edited by Dave999 on Thu Mar 10, 16 10:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Greater Knapweed near the Mugwort by the Buckthorn tree is dying
I don't want to seem to be gloating but I have none of these problems, If I haven't used the Charger for a while I just switch on the electric pump wait a few seconds pump the gas pedal a couple of times turn the key and hey presto it starts and runs, open the garage door switch off the electric pump and off I go. 
Are we there yet dad ..... 10 to the gallon but worth it.
MMA Public Relations Officer.
MMA South London and Surrey Area Rep.
MMA Public Relations Officer.
MMA South London and Surrey Area Rep.
Disabled Choke on my Holley 600 too.
I have to feather the throttle for circa 30 seconds or it will stall. More so this time of year and prolonged periods of lay-up.
If I try to get in and drive to quickly, quite simply reverse out of garage under throttle....off throttle on brake and it'll stall. No choke and cold engine will always do it.
Boiling over........
*What condition is the rad in: If years old efficiency suffers. My old Mopar rad was fine up to 55mph. Would sit at that all day. Start getting a little heavy on the throttle or push past that and I remember seeing 215 degrees.
New rad and thermostat in. Sits probably too low now at around 170 (problem solved).
*Timing.......Seen many posts over the years where the timing being out made them run hot....too hot and crap. Sort timing and its goes faster, stays cooler and runs better overall.
*Fan......How far is the fan off the rad. Again (though not normally an issue in winter). Sometimes a miss spaced fan without a shroud can basically do three fifths of bugger all...especially with no forward motion/air flow though the grill (sat in traffic). Cars don't run well without airflow exchanging the heat.
I'd bet on No2 with a slice of number 1 possibly.
I have to feather the throttle for circa 30 seconds or it will stall. More so this time of year and prolonged periods of lay-up.
If I try to get in and drive to quickly, quite simply reverse out of garage under throttle....off throttle on brake and it'll stall. No choke and cold engine will always do it.
Boiling over........
*What condition is the rad in: If years old efficiency suffers. My old Mopar rad was fine up to 55mph. Would sit at that all day. Start getting a little heavy on the throttle or push past that and I remember seeing 215 degrees.
New rad and thermostat in. Sits probably too low now at around 170 (problem solved).
*Timing.......Seen many posts over the years where the timing being out made them run hot....too hot and crap. Sort timing and its goes faster, stays cooler and runs better overall.
*Fan......How far is the fan off the rad. Again (though not normally an issue in winter). Sometimes a miss spaced fan without a shroud can basically do three fifths of bugger all...especially with no forward motion/air flow though the grill (sat in traffic). Cars don't run well without airflow exchanging the heat.
I'd bet on No2 with a slice of number 1 possibly.
Dave Tildesley.....MMA-081
72 Dodge Dart
73 Plymouth Duster - SOLD
I wanna go so FAST i think i'm going to DIE!..........Then i'll shift into second!
"My Car is a work in progress, Probably never gonna get finished, never gonna have the money to Bananarama!!"
72 Dodge Dart
73 Plymouth Duster - SOLD
I wanna go so FAST i think i'm going to DIE!..........Then i'll shift into second!
"My Car is a work in progress, Probably never gonna get finished, never gonna have the money to Bananarama!!"
need to watch when it gets hot
if it heats up when idling and boils but cools once you start to get faster than about 30 mph
or
if it heats up when traveling at faster than 40
Former, too little timing at idle can cause that makes the exhaust manifold very very hot.
Slipping fan belt can cause that
fan with wrong spacer I.e too far away
the fact that it cools when you get moving indicates there is not much wrong with the radiator and the pump must be pumping something
latter blocked radiator
broken thermostat
in some cases no thermostat (the ring of the stat body provides a restriction that loads up the pump and helps to avoid cavitation)
corroded water pump impellor (no vanes left due to rust or cavitation)
sort timing
and
cooling system flush, treatment and hose out block, heater matrix and radiator and puts some ladies tights or a filter box in the top hose to see what you catch.
Dave
if it heats up when idling and boils but cools once you start to get faster than about 30 mph
or
if it heats up when traveling at faster than 40
Former, too little timing at idle can cause that makes the exhaust manifold very very hot.
Slipping fan belt can cause that
fan with wrong spacer I.e too far away
the fact that it cools when you get moving indicates there is not much wrong with the radiator and the pump must be pumping something
latter blocked radiator
broken thermostat
in some cases no thermostat (the ring of the stat body provides a restriction that loads up the pump and helps to avoid cavitation)
corroded water pump impellor (no vanes left due to rust or cavitation)
sort timing
and
cooling system flush, treatment and hose out block, heater matrix and radiator and puts some ladies tights or a filter box in the top hose to see what you catch.
Dave
The Greater Knapweed near the Mugwort by the Buckthorn tree is dying
Oh
hang on
you may need to bend over the tangs on your radiator cap
it needs to seal to the inlet and they ware in the place where the tangs wind in.
a cap that lifts provides no pressure and you will boil
it should be hard to get it off and on
Dave
hang on
you may need to bend over the tangs on your radiator cap
it needs to seal to the inlet and they ware in the place where the tangs wind in.
a cap that lifts provides no pressure and you will boil
it should be hard to get it off and on
Dave
The Greater Knapweed near the Mugwort by the Buckthorn tree is dying