I've been agonizing a bit over the last couple of weeks about what kind of oil to put in my 318 when i do a change this weekend.
Off the shelf options from motor factors and Halfrauds etc are seriously limited. Also, is it worth popping an additive in, and if so which one?
The internet is awash with stories, documents, opinions and stories about oil. I've trawled through many of them and read loads of stuff.
However, this article (link below) is by far the best, most comprehensive thing i've come across. Contains a wealth of information about exactly the kind of questions we have about our old engines.
http://www.mossmotors.com/graphics/prod ... 20Cars.pdf
Oil and ZDDP
Moderator: Moderators
-
octanejunkie
- Posts: 399
- Joined: Thu Dec 04, 14 3:03 pm
- Location: Somerset
Oil and ZDDP
"If its a job no man can survive, he's the man for the job"
-
MilesnMiles
- Posts: 7309
- Joined: Fri Nov 04, 05 8:40 pm
- Location: Cornwall
I use Driven HR1 (used to be Joe Gibbs). 15/50 with high Zinc.
Does the job, oil pumps up quick and have no nasty knocks or rattles. Buy it off ebay.
Does the job, oil pumps up quick and have no nasty knocks or rattles. Buy it off ebay.
Dave Tildesley.....MMA-081
72 Dodge Dart
73 Plymouth Duster - SOLD
I wanna go so FAST i think i'm going to DIE!..........Then i'll shift into second!
"My Car is a work in progress, Probably never gonna get finished, never gonna have the money to Bananarama!!"
72 Dodge Dart
73 Plymouth Duster - SOLD
I wanna go so FAST i think i'm going to DIE!..........Then i'll shift into second!
"My Car is a work in progress, Probably never gonna get finished, never gonna have the money to Bananarama!!"
I use dynolite as I have MOSS Europe down the road, its the only 20 W50 I have found that maintains oil pressure when very hot.
too much ZDDP additive causes the other additives in the oil to degrade.
but if it is a well used motor you'd be perfectly fine with Halfords classic (its just a copy of duckhams) or comma classic (which is probably the same stuff) all Green oil.
both get their oil made by one of the Big European suppliers to trade and car manufacturers
Valvoline 20w50 race is popular
if you just won the lottery royal purple is good
the ZDDP promotes a chemical bonding type reaction with surfaces under extreme pressure as such its not easy to wipe off so initial high concentration for first start up can be relatively easily maintained by lower levels at oil change time
most of the stuff on the internet about cam lobes wiping came about in the early- mid 2000s
a time when the US started to phase out ZDDP type additives in cheapo service station and franchised oil change garages like jiffy lube basically own brand stuff that lots of guys used. they did this mainly to avoid catalytic converter damage and emissions.
at the same time Johnson Hylift and Stanadyne (GM) the two main suppliers of flat tappet lifters moved into roller lifter production and left the old car and aftermarket with no lifters. Retail Suppliers had to go to china to get them made.
no money for big corporations unless they are making what current car manufacturers want and they didn't want flat tappet lifters.
both companies went through change of ownership and I think both again make flat tappet lifters....but until 2002 their lifters were inside most peoples motors, regardless of what was on the box when the cam kit arrived.
by 2005 both had gone bankrupt or pulled out of the market
then problems started arriving
both are now back Johnson makes lifters for federal mogul and all associated brands
I believe comp crane et al choose the best deal
stanadyne are still linked to GM and tend to cover off that end
delphi and Eaton might also make some again
doesn't mean they're being made in the US just that companies who know how to make them are in a position of control over quality.
so if lifter quality and cam shaft quality is back to normal
and you buy an oil designed for old cars or racing versions of old cars
continue as you would have done at any time before about 2005, the danger has past.... provided your lifters rotate, your spring pressure is not way too great, and you built your engine with the right clearances for coil bind retainer to seal clearance and a rocker with enough rock to accommodate your lift ....
and of course when there is a quality problem a lot of the stuff that was sub standard ended up in places where you wouldn't expect. hence the Australians had problems with cam shaft lobes being destroyed in the few years after everything started to get better in the US.
I dare say people here probably did as well.
the warranty on US sourced goods expires once it has left US territory leaving the importer with the problem. and of course the issue was THEN obviously caused by poor assembly techniques ad a lack of ZDDP not the quality of the lifter supplied.
hence loads of irate people posting on the internet about disasters
when i was building my current motor which i started buying parts for in 2007 i was paranoid. so i did masses and masses of reading on the matter and eventaully about 95 pages into a google serch on ZDDP found an article written by an ex amployee of one of the companies oultlining the disastorus attempts to try to keep the company afloat while they re tooled to make roller lifters and left their long standing customers with no flat tappet lifters....
it formed my view that extra ZDDP was necessary to allow a sub standard lifter to survive. once it has been worked/run in mmmm you still need some.
you can achive similar using graphogen a graphite paste. doesn't chemiccally bond but does enough at break in time to allow the lifters to survive.
Dave
too much ZDDP additive causes the other additives in the oil to degrade.
but if it is a well used motor you'd be perfectly fine with Halfords classic (its just a copy of duckhams) or comma classic (which is probably the same stuff) all Green oil.
both get their oil made by one of the Big European suppliers to trade and car manufacturers
Valvoline 20w50 race is popular
if you just won the lottery royal purple is good
the ZDDP promotes a chemical bonding type reaction with surfaces under extreme pressure as such its not easy to wipe off so initial high concentration for first start up can be relatively easily maintained by lower levels at oil change time
most of the stuff on the internet about cam lobes wiping came about in the early- mid 2000s
a time when the US started to phase out ZDDP type additives in cheapo service station and franchised oil change garages like jiffy lube basically own brand stuff that lots of guys used. they did this mainly to avoid catalytic converter damage and emissions.
at the same time Johnson Hylift and Stanadyne (GM) the two main suppliers of flat tappet lifters moved into roller lifter production and left the old car and aftermarket with no lifters. Retail Suppliers had to go to china to get them made.
no money for big corporations unless they are making what current car manufacturers want and they didn't want flat tappet lifters.
both companies went through change of ownership and I think both again make flat tappet lifters....but until 2002 their lifters were inside most peoples motors, regardless of what was on the box when the cam kit arrived.
by 2005 both had gone bankrupt or pulled out of the market
then problems started arriving
both are now back Johnson makes lifters for federal mogul and all associated brands
I believe comp crane et al choose the best deal
stanadyne are still linked to GM and tend to cover off that end
delphi and Eaton might also make some again
doesn't mean they're being made in the US just that companies who know how to make them are in a position of control over quality.
so if lifter quality and cam shaft quality is back to normal
and you buy an oil designed for old cars or racing versions of old cars
continue as you would have done at any time before about 2005, the danger has past.... provided your lifters rotate, your spring pressure is not way too great, and you built your engine with the right clearances for coil bind retainer to seal clearance and a rocker with enough rock to accommodate your lift ....
and of course when there is a quality problem a lot of the stuff that was sub standard ended up in places where you wouldn't expect. hence the Australians had problems with cam shaft lobes being destroyed in the few years after everything started to get better in the US.
I dare say people here probably did as well.
the warranty on US sourced goods expires once it has left US territory leaving the importer with the problem. and of course the issue was THEN obviously caused by poor assembly techniques ad a lack of ZDDP not the quality of the lifter supplied.
hence loads of irate people posting on the internet about disasters
when i was building my current motor which i started buying parts for in 2007 i was paranoid. so i did masses and masses of reading on the matter and eventaully about 95 pages into a google serch on ZDDP found an article written by an ex amployee of one of the companies oultlining the disastorus attempts to try to keep the company afloat while they re tooled to make roller lifters and left their long standing customers with no flat tappet lifters....
it formed my view that extra ZDDP was necessary to allow a sub standard lifter to survive. once it has been worked/run in mmmm you still need some.
you can achive similar using graphogen a graphite paste. doesn't chemiccally bond but does enough at break in time to allow the lifters to survive.
Dave
Last edited by Dave999 on Tue Jun 20, 17 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Greater Knapweed near the Mugwort by the Buckthorn tree is dying
well mine manages 15 lb/inch with a new filter using the dynalite oil
10 was more common with other brands when really hot
thats with a 195F stat it was a bit better when i had the 175F in but. it was running exceedingly cool. the guage mooved about 1/2 of 1 section off the cold bit.
now sits more or less in the middle where it should be all of the time
hemi 6s have poor oil pumps. when hot i never get over 45 at higher RPM. maybe 50 -55 if i wring its neck
they flow quite a bit of oil..pressure isn't everything.... but compared to the v8s this is a tad on the low side
clerance on the mains is supposed to be 0.0005 to 0.0015
its built with 0.002 which seemed reasonable
the rod big end are also supposed to tend towards 0.0005 clerance max of 0.0015
they are at 0.0015 thou
so i have a bit more space in there. but then again i can't belive the factory managed that tight without seizeing the odd motor anyway
Dave
10 was more common with other brands when really hot
thats with a 195F stat it was a bit better when i had the 175F in but. it was running exceedingly cool. the guage mooved about 1/2 of 1 section off the cold bit.
now sits more or less in the middle where it should be all of the time
hemi 6s have poor oil pumps. when hot i never get over 45 at higher RPM. maybe 50 -55 if i wring its neck
they flow quite a bit of oil..pressure isn't everything.... but compared to the v8s this is a tad on the low side
clerance on the mains is supposed to be 0.0005 to 0.0015
its built with 0.002 which seemed reasonable
the rod big end are also supposed to tend towards 0.0005 clerance max of 0.0015
they are at 0.0015 thou
so i have a bit more space in there. but then again i can't belive the factory managed that tight without seizeing the odd motor anyway
Dave
The Greater Knapweed near the Mugwort by the Buckthorn tree is dying
not a good situation for the buyer
which brings us back to
Was it the oil?
or
Was it the build/parts?
there has to be more to that story...
Dave you build loads of engines i mean its part of your business ...have you been asked to have a look at it?
I'd be really interested if the customer doesn't mind what you think happened there...
i don't think I'd use a modern synthetic for running in i'd doubt many of us would so I'd guess this was a second hand motor....
Dave
which brings us back to
Was it the oil?
or
Was it the build/parts?
there has to be more to that story...
Dave you build loads of engines i mean its part of your business ...have you been asked to have a look at it?
I'd be really interested if the customer doesn't mind what you think happened there...
i don't think I'd use a modern synthetic for running in i'd doubt many of us would so I'd guess this was a second hand motor....
Dave
The Greater Knapweed near the Mugwort by the Buckthorn tree is dying