E10 petrol

[Steve]

I read something a few days ago about the economics of E5 fuel and its supply etc. A bunch of mechanics were saying they were already seeing various issues in older cars and, as the demand for E5 dwindles, it is unlikely that we will see it available in a few years. They were of the opinion that it will see the coffin sealed on many of our classics. Can't find it again unfortunately.

I'm still using Shell fuel and I put Frosts Ethomix in 1ml to 1 litre. I'm considering going back to using an octane booster too but must do a bit of research first.

Cheers Steve

[mopar_mark]

I read something a few days ago about the economics of E5 fuel and its supply etc. A bunch of mechanics were saying they were already seeing various issues in older cars and, as the demand for E5 dwindles, it is unlikely that we will see it available in a few years. They were of the opinion that it will see the coffin sealed on many of our classics. Can't find it again unfortunately.

I'm still using Shell fuel and I put Frosts Ethomix in 1ml to 1 litre. I'm considering going back to using an octane booster too but must do a bit of research first.

Cheers Steve

When they say issues with classics & coffin sealed on many classics…. I don’t get it, I can understand it deteriorating some rubber fuel lines & possibly not good for fuel to sit left in carbs or injectors, but what else can 10% of Ethanol effect.

Ethanol is new to me & I’ve not been running E85 for long, other than I drain fuel out & run through with regular fuel when not in regular use. I see no issues, in fact more positives. Allows me to run more ignition, takes more boost, runs cooler. That said my car uses a lot more E85 than fuel

[Steve]

Hi Mark. I can't find the article again online but from memory, they were saying the E10 in older vehicles corrodes metal fuel pipes as well as rubber, fuel filters, fuel tanks, carb internals etc (all stuff we have discussed previously).

I'm not technically minded enough to make any informed or knowledgeable contributions to the debate but am interested in what potential harm can be done to our cars (and the whole hobby).

I've never had an issue with E5 in my car but usually put the old 'super unleaded' in unless I got caught short. It's just a bit worrying that there is mention of an eventual phasing out of E5 completely as I haven't heard this mentioned before. I'm guessing that many older cars that are just on the edge of being everyday cars and need E5 are 25 year old cars that aren't valuable and won't eventually jump over into the 'classic' hobby. Once they have gone (and their demand for a couple of tanks of E5 a month), will it then become uneconomical for petrol companies to produce E5?? After all, it is just about money. Shell, Esso, etc etc have no interest in keeping the Classic Car hobby alive, they just want to make a profit.

Think we are OK for now but I do feel that at some point our environmental argument that our old cars don't cause any adverse emissions as we don't use them much and there aren't that many still in use (relatively speaking) will work against us.

I would be interested to hear any opinions from those with more knowledge about the use of fuel stabilisers, octane boosters etc as they could provide us with a bit more insurance against future issues,

Cheers Steve

[Dave999]

i don't think its the ethanol that corrodes metal fuel lines

ethanol attracts water into the fuel and That washes out the sulphur, when these sulphur compounds sit in water and ethanol mix they make a range of strange organic acids and one that isn't, sulphurous acid, which we know better as acid rain.. if it can kill a pine forest in norway i'd guess it can eat tank and metal pipe eventually as well.

but it has to absorb a lot of water....and be standing a very long time....

i probably said it before

in Australia pre 2003 the fuel was randomly e5 e10 e20 e25 or what the blender thought they could get away with.... as there was no standard
there were a few issues. polluted fuel, old watered out fuel, rotten old perished fuel pipes and a lot of complaint, mostly driven by the fact that they all cost the same, you didn't know what you'd be getting, and you got less performance from the e25 in respect to miles per gallon and power if you left everything the same.
You should not have to retune your car after every fill up....etc etc

since 2004 thay have standardised on E10
their government site will not add any car before the ECU age to its list of compatible cars... BUT there is a thriving classic cars scene and on the Aussie facebook pages and messagboards E10 fuel hardly mentioned.

we need our resident Aussie, Kev to pipe up....i'm sure he will have heard some complaints about the fuel but does run a VG valiant with a slant or v8

its reasonably comparable the fuel has to work at the coast and in the middle, 20-40+*C and up the mountains in the ski resorts -15* to 20 *C and up the blue mountains and in Tazmainia both of which are much like a cross between devon and south wales.
so they will have winter and summer blends like us.

PS i think the vast majority of fuel solutions in a bottle are snake oil. the ones that do work just keep any absorbed water in suspension so it doesn't puddle in the bottom of the tank.. hence the "Car won't start after standing" problem is addressed. but the fuel is just as old as it was.....

if all pipes are good modern pipes. (fuel pipe, breather pipe, filler to tank coupling, anything under the fuel level) and you keep an eye on the car, a full tank before standing for a few months is still the best bet. smallest surface area of fuel exposed to atmosphere at the base of the filler pipe

avoids having to pump or drain the tank which carries some risk of going bang. i think everyone in the car hobby knows someone who had the misfortune of having a tank or oil drum go WUMP or miraculously fly across the yard or at least have to open all the doors and evcuate until the mess they made all evaporates.

if you own 20 cars and they all stand a long time it probably makes sense to drain the lot having 20 cars dump all thier fuel into you storage facility is not great.

when the compresor on your beer fridge switches on BOOM

running the car till the carb is empty might help if the carb was made a long time ago and uses rubber diaphragms

but i have to admit the only carbs i have ever found full of corrosion or jelly were on breakers yard cars open to the elements full of rain water i guess.

as with the move to unleaded everyone knows omeone who has a mate who's carb looked like it was full of swafega and his brass floats got leaky and well everything went wrong..... i'm not so sure

and again pleanty of buinesses to take your money to FIX the issue and again i'm suspicious

is anyone still running a bag of chicken wire filled with tiny rocks in their tank? to guard againts valve seat recession.....?

there is no smoke without fire. but i think somone just snuffed out a birthday candle....



Dave

[MattH]

I think you are right Dave, this is not a massive issue, just another media hype, same as the anti tampering and modification law.
Yes you might need to do a bit to keep your car running right, such as replace some rubber bits, but we tend to keep our cars checked over anyway.

Issue is the up and coming old cars that are pre - 2011 that the owners may not have any mechanical knowledge and the funds to spend on the cars as they are not worth alot yet. Good argument for running a mid 2000's diesel Honda, no petrol needed!

[Mark B]

Filled up with E5 today at our local station, was £1.84. I know prices are high at the moment but Shell are taking the Bananarama!.
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[Steve]

And the annoying thing is it's just the old normal unleaded disguised as super unleaded

[Mark B]

And the annoying thing is it's just the old normal unleaded disguised as super unleaded

Forgot about that, yes you're right, makes it even worst.

[Steve]

Thought that would make you feel better Mark

[MattH]

I thought 168.9 was bad round here for diesel.

Costco still only 149.9

[Steve]

I think this latest fuel price hike will stop me using my car as much if I'm honest. Added to all the other increases something has to give at some point. Might see it as a chance to put the car up on stands and spend a few weeks re doing the underseal etc. Everything under the car needs a good clean too so might be a good time to fettle

[Matt74]

They were talking about fuel prices on talk radio a couple of days ago and apparently there are some services in Newcastle (I think) selling fuel at £2.12.
I've been thinking of looking for a better paid job for a while but the way fuel prices have been going up lately and the fact that I only live 1/2 a mile away from work l might be better off staying where I am for now!

[Blue]

£2 a litre everywhere soon seems inevitable given the current situation. I suspect the arse will fall out of the American car market at least for a while, that's the under 20k sector the higher priced stuff will likely remain that way. The current situation is playing right into the hands of the electric vehicle lobby.

[Steve]

I agree Blue, I've always said our days in old cars are numbered and values will drop significantly as soon as they become beyond reasonably economical to use on a hobby basis. I fear that time is approaching. My car will be off the road if the price goes much higher as I just can't afford or justify the cost of a drive out in her that is approaching £1 a mile!

[Blue]

It’s not just the cost of fuel, it’s inflation and household heating costs that are coming into play now. The buyers for the lower end of the hobby market will be the ones that get hit hardest.