Just read this on the yearone site
K7103
Aftermarket control arm ?problem solver? bushing kit used allow proper alignment of 1962-1972 B-body and 1970-1974 E-body models with a sagging frame. Special offset bushings offered as a repair kit
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Sagging Frame? ! Panic! Anyone know how to check?! And how to fix? Can i porta-power / jig it then brace it somewhere?
Anyone used these bushes too?
Will
B body 'sagging frame'?! and camber angle
Moderator: Moderators
Jeez i've been known to bodge things from time to time but correcting a sagging frame (bent chassis surely?) by compensating with steering bushes is a little dodgy isn't it? Or am i misunderstanding the problem? Or are yearone trying to panic people into buying stuff they don't need??
No-one will believe you...
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Anonymous
If you can't get the front end aligned to factory spec with the regular bushes , then I'd look for the actual problem before using offset bushes.
I've set Camber/caster on lots of B-Bodies , even one that had been landed hard on the front end so that the inner wings wrinkled (yee-har), and not had a problem with meeting the factory specs. Any misalignment on your car is likely to be localised between the LCA mount on the K-member, and the two UCA pivots on the inner wing. Can you align one side & not the other, or is there a problem both sides?
Any 'sagging', if indeed you have it - which I reckon is unlikely, will generally show as increased caster (probably a good thing) , and won't normally affect your ability to get the camber within spec .
Regarding caster , the most I can generally achieve on a B-body whilst maintaining correct camber angle is 1.5 - 2 degrees, which whilst good for factory spec , is not enough by modern standards .
What the offset bushes ARE good for is allowing more rearwards adjustment of the top balljoint, giving the possibilty of much more caster than factory spec , which will aid straightline high-speed stability & self-centreing of the steering. I've got a set that are going in my Charger soon, and I'll report back on how much extra Caster I can get with them .
I've set Camber/caster on lots of B-Bodies , even one that had been landed hard on the front end so that the inner wings wrinkled (yee-har), and not had a problem with meeting the factory specs. Any misalignment on your car is likely to be localised between the LCA mount on the K-member, and the two UCA pivots on the inner wing. Can you align one side & not the other, or is there a problem both sides?
Any 'sagging', if indeed you have it - which I reckon is unlikely, will generally show as increased caster (probably a good thing) , and won't normally affect your ability to get the camber within spec .
Regarding caster , the most I can generally achieve on a B-body whilst maintaining correct camber angle is 1.5 - 2 degrees, which whilst good for factory spec , is not enough by modern standards .
What the offset bushes ARE good for is allowing more rearwards adjustment of the top balljoint, giving the possibilty of much more caster than factory spec , which will aid straightline high-speed stability & self-centreing of the steering. I've got a set that are going in my Charger soon, and I'll report back on how much extra Caster I can get with them .
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Anonymous
well, noone's come up with any suggestions as to what the real problem is so far..
ANd the LH side is sort of in the right place, but its at full adjustment.
I have already replace the lower bushes, and the upper ones look nearly new.
got to do something about it because the car drives really bad, and its completely spoiling my enjoyment of it.
Mega light steering doesnt help, is there a way of reducing the power assistance to get some more feel ? Like stronger springs in the valve part of the steering box?
ANd the LH side is sort of in the right place, but its at full adjustment.
I have already replace the lower bushes, and the upper ones look nearly new.
got to do something about it because the car drives really bad, and its completely spoiling my enjoyment of it.
Mega light steering doesnt help, is there a way of reducing the power assistance to get some more feel ? Like stronger springs in the valve part of the steering box?
Hi Will,
When you say the LH side is 'in the right place', are you checking Camber AND Caster ? And what's 'full adjustment' on your car ?
1)Both cams all the way outboard
2)Both cams all the way inboard
or 3) (correct for best drivability), Set for max available caster (with stock bushes about 1.5 degrees rearward tilt) whilst maintaning .5 to 1 degree negative camber?
Do you have a caster gauge ? You absolutely cannot set wheel alignment just using camber & tracking . Caster is altered on a b-body every time you move one of the eccentrics, and if you haven't got enough caster, or unequal caster both sides, it'll make the car drive really poorly.
Caster & camber adjustment is affected only (well almost only) by the following items:
1) Location of LCA inner mount on K-Member in relation to the two inner UCA mounts on inner wing. The straightness of the rest of the car should not be an issue here - it would have to be really,really bent to make any difference.
2) Length of LCA tie rod between outer end of UCA & K-member.(this affects mainly caster adjustment)
3) actual LCA used
4) actual UCA used
5) actual stub axle used
If you cant get your caster/camber alignment right , then it is one of these things that is wrong. Nothing else can make a difference (foot probably soon to be in mouth) .
Either your LCA/UCA mounts are somehow in the wrong place , or some of the suspension parts are incorrect.
Cheers,
Matt
When you say the LH side is 'in the right place', are you checking Camber AND Caster ? And what's 'full adjustment' on your car ?
1)Both cams all the way outboard
2)Both cams all the way inboard
or 3) (correct for best drivability), Set for max available caster (with stock bushes about 1.5 degrees rearward tilt) whilst maintaning .5 to 1 degree negative camber?
Do you have a caster gauge ? You absolutely cannot set wheel alignment just using camber & tracking . Caster is altered on a b-body every time you move one of the eccentrics, and if you haven't got enough caster, or unequal caster both sides, it'll make the car drive really poorly.
Caster & camber adjustment is affected only (well almost only) by the following items:
1) Location of LCA inner mount on K-Member in relation to the two inner UCA mounts on inner wing. The straightness of the rest of the car should not be an issue here - it would have to be really,really bent to make any difference.
2) Length of LCA tie rod between outer end of UCA & K-member.(this affects mainly caster adjustment)
3) actual LCA used
4) actual UCA used
5) actual stub axle used
If you cant get your caster/camber alignment right , then it is one of these things that is wrong. Nothing else can make a difference (foot probably soon to be in mouth) .
Either your LCA/UCA mounts are somehow in the wrong place , or some of the suspension parts are incorrect.
Cheers,
Matt
Well according to my contacts (and that includes the boys at the Motor Industry Repair Research Centre at Thatcham) the John Bean wheel alignment system is about the best there is.
I thinks it's called the Visualiner and my suggestion Will, is to find someone down in your neck of the woods with one of those.
Alternatively, I can give you the contact details of a bodyshop near you with a Blackhawk Shark ultrasonic vehicle measuring system that will give you an accurate printed report of your front end dimensions, to make sure everything is where it should be...that's what I did, particularly as I was welding in frame connectors.
If the operator knows what he is doing, he can check out all the suspension mountings and maybe a certain amount of alignment at the same time.
Oh, if only I still had my bodyshop, I could help so many of you guys out with all that lovely kit!
HTH Will!
I thinks it's called the Visualiner and my suggestion Will, is to find someone down in your neck of the woods with one of those.
Alternatively, I can give you the contact details of a bodyshop near you with a Blackhawk Shark ultrasonic vehicle measuring system that will give you an accurate printed report of your front end dimensions, to make sure everything is where it should be...that's what I did, particularly as I was welding in frame connectors.
If the operator knows what he is doing, he can check out all the suspension mountings and maybe a certain amount of alignment at the same time.
Oh, if only I still had my bodyshop, I could help so many of you guys out with all that lovely kit!
HTH Will!
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Anonymous
Thanks Matt!
What i mean is, my UCA's are as far out as i can get them using the cams, i then dialed the rearmost adjuster in a bit on the LH side to get some caster, but if i do that on the RH side, which already is fully out and has too much -ve camber, it goes mega -ve camber.
Stuff that seems to happen on this car: WHen i accellerate, the front of the car lifts up a bit, and the tracking seems to alter from what it is when coasting or braking.
the tyres are wearing on the inside edges.
succeptable to bump steer.
car really hard to keep in a straight line. Requires full concentration, very stressful.
camber seems to change if you change ride height (is that NORMAL!?)
steering too light.
also i think my steering box is set up wrong, the steering has a tight spot. I suspect the box needs centralising, so that the tightest spot is right in the middle of the draglink arc, then i maybe need to loosen the sectorshaft adjuster a tad. Might haev a go at that later.
Anyone near Crawley who has a Charger that i can have a drive of to see how it should feel?
What i mean is, my UCA's are as far out as i can get them using the cams, i then dialed the rearmost adjuster in a bit on the LH side to get some caster, but if i do that on the RH side, which already is fully out and has too much -ve camber, it goes mega -ve camber.
Stuff that seems to happen on this car: WHen i accellerate, the front of the car lifts up a bit, and the tracking seems to alter from what it is when coasting or braking.
the tyres are wearing on the inside edges.
succeptable to bump steer.
car really hard to keep in a straight line. Requires full concentration, very stressful.
camber seems to change if you change ride height (is that NORMAL!?)
steering too light.
also i think my steering box is set up wrong, the steering has a tight spot. I suspect the box needs centralising, so that the tightest spot is right in the middle of the draglink arc, then i maybe need to loosen the sectorshaft adjuster a tad. Might haev a go at that later.
Anyone near Crawley who has a Charger that i can have a drive of to see how it should feel?
I would think you'd need quite a lot of camber to wear the insides of the tyres .I presume you've checked the tracking & you're not toeing out ? Tracking has to be reset every time you move the UCA eccentrics. Oh , and the UCA eccentric bolts have to be done up REALLY tight
If both UCA adjusters are all the way out, you may have gone into negative caster.
Either negative caster (when the steering axis is inclined towards the front of the vehicle) , or toe-out , will cause the car to be very hard to keep in a straight line. Negative caster will also lighten the steering .
So the LHS of the car seems fairly normal , but the RHS has generally way too much -ve camber? .
1) your UCA is wrong & too short
2) the inner UCA mounting points have moved towards the centre of the car
3) your LCA is too long
4) You have the wrong stubaxle/upright, or it's bent.
To a certain extent you're shooting in the dark without a basic set of camber/caster gauges though. You can see camber to a certain extent, or just use a normal spirit level on the undistorted portion of the tyre . But you have to know what the caster's doing to analyse the car, and there's no way to tell without gauges.
Cheers,
Matt
If both UCA adjusters are all the way out, you may have gone into negative caster.
Either negative caster (when the steering axis is inclined towards the front of the vehicle) , or toe-out , will cause the car to be very hard to keep in a straight line. Negative caster will also lighten the steering .
So the LHS of the car seems fairly normal , but the RHS has generally way too much -ve camber? .
1) your UCA is wrong & too short
2) the inner UCA mounting points have moved towards the centre of the car
3) your LCA is too long
4) You have the wrong stubaxle/upright, or it's bent.
To a certain extent you're shooting in the dark without a basic set of camber/caster gauges though. You can see camber to a certain extent, or just use a normal spirit level on the undistorted portion of the tyre . But you have to know what the caster's doing to analyse the car, and there's no way to tell without gauges.
Cheers,
Matt
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Anonymous
Thanks Matt
I agree with all your theorys, nice to have someone thinking along the same lines, BUT what i don;t know is, ,are there similar UCA or LCA's that someone MIGHT have put in ? Like Challenger ones or C body ones or something? or are they
A: the same anyway
B: so different they wouldnt fit
c: about 1/4 inch different and easy to mix up!
The UCA mounts dont seem damaged, no evidence of any crash (or jump) damage to the car . Doors shut ok, no previous body shell repairs. (original rad support etc)
I DID replace the UCA on the RH side with one i bought from a swapmeet, but pretty sure it was right.
i have no way of knowing if the hubs are right,
i guess i would need someone to measure distance betwen LCA pivots etc, unless that is written in some book somewhere?
Maybe its got the wrong K member in it?!
I agree with all your theorys, nice to have someone thinking along the same lines, BUT what i don;t know is, ,are there similar UCA or LCA's that someone MIGHT have put in ? Like Challenger ones or C body ones or something? or are they
A: the same anyway
B: so different they wouldnt fit
c: about 1/4 inch different and easy to mix up!
The UCA mounts dont seem damaged, no evidence of any crash (or jump) damage to the car . Doors shut ok, no previous body shell repairs. (original rad support etc)
I DID replace the UCA on the RH side with one i bought from a swapmeet, but pretty sure it was right.
i have no way of knowing if the hubs are right,
i guess i would need someone to measure distance betwen LCA pivots etc, unless that is written in some book somewhere?
Maybe its got the wrong K member in it?!
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Anonymous