Running 10's N/A with an iron headed 440

Les Szabo · Post by **Les Szabo** » Sat Nov 26, 11 9:34 pm

Hi all, just thought I'd put this up again as a refresher for anyone who hasn't seen it in before on here, and who's building a race car and starting with a standard 440 engine from a wrecker or similar.
This is what I ran in 1991 to run the times mentioned below, its intended to keep costs down to a minimum as todays vast amount of bolt-on goodies can be very tempting, but do you really need them? to achieve YOUR goals.

Car..1969 Cuda, Race spec

Engine:
440 6-pack, std bottom end, rod weight 2lb ea, std pistons 10.5:1 CR, 1100gms ea., internally balanced, and weight matched.

Camshaft, Comp Cams Flat tappet, .650 lift, 290deg@.050thou

Heads, 906 Ported, 2.14 inlet/1.81 exh., HS Roller Rockers, triple springs with small spring taken out, all set up to exact length....your biggest outlay, but the biggest gain (7/10's), apart from N20.

Oiling, single external line Milodon, deep sump. (important)

Induction, Team G Race, +2" spacer+N20 plate, high as I could get it. 850dp Holley used on the 340, 50cc front pump, 88fr jets/92 rear, no.31 extended shooters.

Exhaust:- 2/14" Fenderwells with 12" extensions.

Transmission:
727, Full Manual, std pattern, 8" 4200 Converter. Mr G. Shifter

Ignition:- Accel electronic with std MSD6A, NGK 7's, 38 deg total all in at 3000rpm

N20- Cheater Big Shot plate kit, 2 x Holley Race pumps, 2 x 1/2" fuel lines, seperate pump for fuel for N20. 4-6psi, simple on/off arming switch, 15lb UK bottle, microswitch set for max hit on WOT.

Chassis:-
2x3 rear rails, std 8 3/4", narrowed 2" per side, Strange 33 spline shafts, strange spool, 4.88 richmond gears, adj Coil overs/ladder Bars, loop and balanced prop with long u-bolts. 12x15 wheels, Tyres, 14x32 Hoosier's at 4-5psi.

Car weight with me approx 2900lbs, prob a bit more like 3100....wasn't light

Best on motor 10.71 @ 126, = 500hp.....could've got it to mid tens with a bit of fiddling with what was there.

Best with N20 175hp shot...1 run only at 9.96 @ 133.90 = 620hp.. at a trap rpm of 7600!!!!.tooo much.

So there you have it, not an absolute, to be used as a guide only but should give you a good idea of whats achievable with a good chassis and tyres, and nothing fancy in the engine dept.

I hope this helps/saves money for some of you who would be happy with these ET's and are thinking of exotic parts you don't necessarily need.
Happy Racing....Les

try these 2 useful calculators.

http://www.wallaceracing.com/et-hp-mph.php
http://www.wallaceracing.com/accel-calc.php

Cannonball · Post by **Cannonball** » Sat Nov 26, 11 10:04 pm

nice one lez,
i keep wanting to put a good old 440 together with some tasty old parts but all on a budjet,

trouble is i have sold off all my nice iron heads.

its getting faster thats the real hard part without n2o

i just freshened a mates eddy head 440 from his challenger think it has run best et 10.70 he i hope is n2o that ready for next season will be interesting, that runs a 11" tire on caltracks hooks a bit to hard or something strange going on as at times i am sure the whole car leaves the ground on a transbrake launch a bit brutal really,

Les Szabo · Post by **Les Szabo** » Sat Nov 26, 11 10:26 pm

Cannonball wrote:nice one lez,
i keep wanting to put a good old 440 together with some tasty old parts but all on a budjet,

trouble is i have sold off all my nice iron heads.

its getting faster thats the real hard part without n2o

i just freshened a mates eddy head 440 from his challenger think it has run best et 10.70 he i hope is n2o that ready for next season will be interesting, that runs a 11" tire on caltracks hooks a bit to hard or something strange going on as at times i am sure the whole car leaves the ground on a transbrake launch a bit brutal really,

Yes Dunc it ain't easy the old way and without sniff. 440 Heads don't breathe well as you know, I got a bit more than 7/10's out of those Hauser heads over stockers.
I really think its attention to detail that counts for a lot, you really got to think how the engine works and what it likes, a simple thing like those 12" header extensions/big 50cc pump on the front of the 850 made a good improvement, and cost very little, things like that...
Your mate shouldn't have a prob running 9's from 10.70, if he can do it on a 125 shot would be great, a 175 shot is very fierce and he might have trouble I guess on 11" tyres especially with a brake, unless he uses timers/delays...sounds like he's gonna break something from the way you describe his launches.

By the way..8.9 @ 151 mph....N20 dunc?...big cubes????, impressive, never did ask.

Mick · Post by **Mick** » Sun Nov 27, 11 11:49 pm

I would say 2-1/4" headers are too big for a 440, 2" are sufficient and HS rockers are hardly what i would call budget. I run isky solid rockers in mine and a 950 would outperform an 850.
2900# with driver is light, mine is between 3150 and 3200.
Dunc
Your mates car, has got to be one of my favourites and is very reliable.
Mick

Cannonball · Post by **Cannonball** » Mon Nov 28, 11 1:08 am

Mick wrote:I would say 2-1/4" headers are too big for a 440, 2" are sufficient and HS rockers are hardly what i would call budget. I run isky solid rockers in mine and a 950 would outperform an 850.
2900# with driver is light, mine is between 3150 and 3200.
Dunc
Your mates car, has got to be one of my favourites and is very reliable.
Mick

hi mick
yes it is very sweet combination, when i stripped his mtr there really was zero wear but we put a set of lighter rods and pistons in it rehone and rings,
lets hope it stays as sweet

Les Szabo · Post by **Les Szabo** » Mon Nov 28, 11 12:43 pm

Mick wrote:I would say 2-1/4" headers are too big for a 440, 2" are sufficient and HS rockers are hardly what i would call budget. I run isky solid rockers in mine and a 950 would outperform an 850.
2900# with driver is light, mine is between 3150 and 3200.
Dunc
Your mates car, has got to be one of my favourites and is very reliable.
Mick

Ok Mick, well the HS Rockers came with the heads that came with the ex Dinger engine I bought, the heads are all that survived from that. This was aimed at the less experienced than yourself who obviously knows a lot more than me...it is a guide only as stated, you can pick holes in anything if you want mate, its meant to give a rough guide of what you can expect from the weight/gearing/engine spec/chassis etc. to someone building a similar effort, I thought it might help?....maybe they should go and speak to you mate, sounds like your well clued up....all the best...Les

autofetish · Post by **autofetish** » Mon Nov 28, 11 1:01 pm

Thanks Les Great post and great info for the less race knowledgeable

I ran a 12sec 1/4 on a 1000 Budget once

Cannonball · Post by **Cannonball** » Mon Nov 28, 11 1:02 pm

i reckon any roller rocker and even mechanical rocker will make the high 10 sec grade so you can save money there,
a good old 1050 dommie on the right 440 wakes them up no end as will a very good sixpak

i bet a 950 was not about in your day les ????

keep suggestions coming lads,

we should get a table up on who run what with a 440, engine drive train combos etc.

might be good information for any new mopar folk wanting to go fast,

autofetish · Post by **autofetish** » Mon Nov 28, 11 1:06 pm

so come on how did you do this
Cannonball 2012 AMC AMX 8.600 164.000

I cant find any good pictures or any specs

8.6 is quick really quick

Cannonball · Post by **Cannonball** » Mon Nov 28, 11 1:17 pm

autofetish wrote:so come on how did you do this
Cannonball 2012 AMC AMX 8.600 164.000

I cant find any good pictures or any specs

8.6 is quick really quick

THE AMX IS A PRO BUILT RACECAR, ITS CHASSIS IS CAPEABLE OF RUNNING 6.0 WITH THE RIGHT MOTIVATION, ITS ALSO VERY LIGHT, I AM LOOKINT FOREWARD TO RUNNING IT NEXT YR, IT WILL GO FASTER I RECKON 8,2S MTR 7.5-7S ON SNIFF,

Dave-R · Post by **Dave-R** » Mon Nov 28, 11 1:25 pm

A 950 flows about the same as a six pack when you rate it in 4bbl terms. Easier to tune the 950 though.

My Hughes Engines Stage 1 ported heads were good for up to around 540hp. You could go to Stage 2 on 906 heads for much bigger HP numbers but they were more hassle to port bigger than some other castings. But I was making well over 500hp with a very streetable cam with just those heads and 10:1 compression KB pistons. Nothing fancy at all.

But then came alloy 440 heads for the same price that are cast with that kind of flow for the same price as cheap port work. They make porting iron heads completely redundant.

In either case. Your cam and head flow need to match.
As fast a valve opening and closing speed is essential.
More lift than the max flow rate of the port is important too as you want the max flow to be in the same area as the average valve lift, if possible, to get the max flow into the cylinder.

More flow in the head than the valve timing will allow will loose you power as port velocity will be slower causing uneven mixture, fuel dropping out of suspension, and poor throttle response.

Wish I had the money to play around with various engine combos. I would enjoy that side of things.

Pete · Post by **Pete** » Mon Nov 28, 11 1:37 pm

I ran an 11.6 on a N/A 440 with iron heads and a Tunnel Ram. Road Legal car. Driven to the Track.

Ran a 10.54 with a N/A 500 with Alloy heads & a 1050. Road Legal car. Driven to the Track.

Ran an 9.71 with a N/A 500 with Alloy heads with a Tunnel Ram. Road Legal car. Trailered due to fuel costs!!!

Ported Iron heads were OK back in the day when there were no realistic or affordable options. Nowadays they just keep the water in......

Dave-R · Post by **Dave-R** » Mon Nov 28, 11 1:39 pm

Pete wrote: Nowadays they just keep the water in......

Not for long they don't.

Which is why my iron heads got scrapped.

Pete · Post by **Pete** » Mon Nov 28, 11 1:42 pm

Aye, a good bit of porting and work-hardening and they soon show their weak points, and with little chance of salvaging all that hard work.....

Dave-R · Post by **Dave-R** » Mon Nov 28, 11 1:46 pm

Well I got a few years out of them I suppose. But cost £1000 which was a lot back then.

Before I bought those heads from Dave Hughes I emailed Edelbrock to ask them if they had plans to bring out a 440 version of their small block alloy head.
I got a nice but short message back saying that they had no such plans....

About a year later they announced the 440 heads.