some engine progress

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Steve
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Post by Steve »

Excuse my ignorance Dave...this thread has prodded my tiny brain into life and kicked up a few questions...

compared to a V8, what are the differences/ challenges in getting more power out of a straight 6 (other than lack of displacement) and is there anything machining wise that is done differently?? Cant see the rotating mass being much different in principle?? would imagine feeding fuel/ air into a 6 is much easier with multiple carbs......interesting stuff :read2:

your attention to detail is a lesson Dave, its obvious that measuring stuff repeatedly and checking everything several times is a good habit to get in to. I messed up with a torque wrench on a 750 Honda engine I rebuilt years ago...I was using a big wrench on small bolts which I now know is a no no. I sheared a head bolt torquing it down as the measurement was at the lower end of the scale. Appears it is much better to work in the middle to upper range of a smaller wrench. Expensive lesson :oops:

cheers Steve :thumbright:
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Dave999
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Post by Dave999 »

Its all much the same apart from a lack of parts at reasonable prices.
these suffer the mopar "costs more" disease + 10-15%

they are an odd mix of 318 Poly era /318 LA era design

318/LA style block and heads Chevy style rockers on ball studs
and hairy string for seals :) nothing from the slant fits.

i spotted a 318 build in one of the mags which looked nice, I read up on how they set up the 340s
and then came across the orginal race team/dealer (Road Track touring car) Race prep guide for the hemi 6 as issued to Chrysler race teams in Oz in 72.

i kinda took the bits i liked from each and combined that with what i know they did to produce the CHI alloy hemi 6 heads in regards to the valve size guides/boss and installed height.

then asked questions on here.

and came up with what i hope is a set of matched parts. which may well be a set of mis mtached parts onece we get it going...but at the mo. i'm happy in my ignorance.... 50:50 on whether ive built a hand genade in respect to CR. dynamic CR looks ok. but it might just ping itself to bits

The issue is it costs more to build a hemi 6 than a 318 which seams daft I know but there are a million 318s and about 50K hemi 6s.
small customer base

2.02 inlet valves. same size as edelbrock big block inlets valves, in stem and head size. nail head instead of standard tulip shaped to make a little more space in the port

1.6 exhaust and a cam to assist with that

pistons availble were either standard cast in 20 or 30 over or custom for £800-£1000 from SRP avialble in 40 or 60 thou and only through an Aussie supplier who "owns the design"

my block was virgin bore 3.91 seems daft to throw any of that away hence i didn't want either set of pistons. pointless paying 2 country's import duty on a US part, and my block honed out nice to 10 thou. The bore shape was good on all bores no ripples, worn bits, just a little corrosion from standing

so i got some jeep hyperutectic pistons that were too tall and had the crown profiled

they stick up in the middle 50 thou and i got a 40 thou cometic gasket made via group buy with some of the aussie chaps....most expensive gasket i've ever purchased

trouble is a jeep pin is fatter than the orginal mopar pin

i wanted fully floating pins but there was no space for the bush so the rods were reamed and the pins press fit.. this still leaves more small end than a chevy has but its thinner than i wanted. the rods are forged rods anyway and the aussies were quite good at getting the piston pin hole right in the middle of the small end.

the cams are ground on what is thought to be a chevy 6 cam blank as a hemi 6 cam. so i needed to get the correct oil pump and dizzy gears
The cam blank is thinner than the orginal to allow more lift without undue alteration of the lifter depth in the block but allow for the smaller base circle dimeter. but that causes more flex and vibration hence the need for much better balancer and the brace on the oil pump.

got a vented lighter steel flyhweel made up that takes a modern v8 ford falcon clutch

the rockers will be my current set of yella terra roller tip needle bearing stud mount which came off a ford windsor

the solid lifters are out of an AMC V8

the struggle now is to get it togrther and in for the NATS

if i do that in time i'll swap on the ford EDIS based programmable igntion which is a MegaJolt Lite Jnr.....

i built it in 2007 and it hasn't been touched since

also need to visit anton and get an exhaust sorted

and bolt up the new (old 2nd hand) close ratio R/T 4 speed sigle rail box


time is running out

i'll be happy if its got over 300 BHP and 300 FT/lb of torque and its done by 6500 RPM

i'll be very unhappy if i wipe the cam or spin a bearing :)

but i have another one in the garage if i grenade this one :)

its very easy to go slow when you don't want to actually start it :)

Dave
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Steve
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Post by Steve »

Nice one Dave and very surprising re cost difference!!

Would be gtreat to see your car at the nats...nice goal to set even if its creeping up on us quickly! :thumbright:
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Post by Dave999 »

and of couse i'll stick the webers on it 45s with 40mm chokes

ideally would be 52s with 45-48 mm chokes based on cylinder volume if it was a screaming 4 pot but its not its a rattly old 4.4 litre six

set up deliberatley too small to limit RPM range to avoid spinning the motor into a harmonic vibration oblivion (or at least avoiding the flywheel coming off)

Dave
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Dave999
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Post by Dave999 »

rockers

well gemeotry appears to be ok

kinda hard to see if it is going off the edge of the stem at no lift

but based on the centre of the roller tip pin being just left of the centre of the retainer think its ok

fine at the other extreme

i think i'm alright

need to paint top of value with wet marker and see whats what

any views

Dave
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Post by Dave-R »

If the geometry is good the roller should move either side of dead centre only a fraction (like 1mm each side of centre) and go no where near the edges.
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Post by Dave-R »

You might need to put shims under the rocker shaft if you have too much one way.
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Dave999
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Post by Dave999 »

no shafts

stud mount

might need longer push rods..

i'll dig out some blue stuff and have a butchers.


Dave
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Post by Dave-R »

Of course. Opened my eyes now and can see. Not easy on a Monday morning for me. :D

So it should be easier with studs to go up or down with the rocker height?

Don't worry about pushrod length just yet. As long as the rocker adjusters end up a few threads showing on the underside of the rocker.
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Post by Dave-R »

Try the rockers at 50% lift. Should be dead center on the valve.
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Dave999
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Post by Dave999 »

will do

adjusters are no problem, there are none in the rear of the rocker. nice simple pressed in seat in back of rocker. its the lock on the rocker stud that provides adjustment, it lets the trunion/mini shaft ride higher or lower i.e...they float up to the lock balanced on the valve and pushrod end. perfectly stable under tension. not stable at all when not

set the lock too high and it clacks and you risk the pushrod popping out hence need for longer pushrods if all is not well .

my valve stems are thinner than mopar standard 3/8 inch hence concerns, just ran out of time, thought a photo with flash would aid in the dark...didn't help much :) needed to show some progress :thumbright:

put the old pressed steel none adjustable ones back on the car. what a racket i'd forgotton how badly it clacked. reground cam and no adjustment doesn't work well.

want to get tins/sump on and painted this week.

Dave
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Post by Dave999 »

arrggh

pattern a smidge too wide and off centre

roller tipped rockers. no scrape minimal side load
thinner than stock valves

cam grinders reccomened springs
cam grinders reccomened lifters
cam grinders reccomened rockers chevy rockers rebuilt with hemi 6 specicifc conversion parts.
cam grinders reccomended reatiners dished by 10 thou for extra spring
cam grinders collets

lift is 0.605

inlet valve length tollerance 4.964-5.000
exhaust 4.995-5.010

all valves 5.010

so issue valves to long or seats too deep in head

yes the flat face of the spring sticks out.....

the wipe of the roller is off centre to get it more centred the rocker needs to sit higher

if the rocker sits higher it rolls more centrally
to sit it higher i probably need longer pushrods

to do that job properly i need 2 checking rods becasue of the hemi head config

because if i raise the rockers more than 1mm due to the semi hemi head the exhaust rocker on 1 cylinder hits the inlet rocker from the next at the trunnion and as they are floating rockers this presses the pushrod into the guide plate and alters it so the roller is not covering to total width of the valve side to side


options

buy some of these and longer pushrods

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/330898169570? ... 054wt_1037

but PRW have a reputation for some of the wrong reasons. but do a very narrow ball mount roller allowing more up n down adjustmnet on canted valve head with stud mounts so close

even then if i have to raise the rocker too high i will run out of thread on the mounting studd and my rocker tin won't fit

I might just leave it. this still has to be a million times better than the ball mounted pressed steel scrapers in there before

but i don't want to compromise having been at least careful, sensible or cautious with everything else.

Think based on not very good methods that i need pushrods between 35 and 50 thou longer to compromise with a slightly better pattern but still not ideal.....

would'nt mind paying if i needed 1/2 and inch extra

Dave
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Post by Dave-R »

Yeah I thought the ends of the valve stems were going to look like that. :(

Hot Rod engine combos always throw up little issues like this. You have to expect them and clearly you know what the issue is and how to rectify it. :thumbright:
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Dave999
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Post by Dave999 »

yeah but time and money probably doesn't add up to that much benefit

i loose a little lift and i worry about the fact that i didn't change it when i had the chance

vs no expenditure, probably a good life out the valves and guides and i get the bloody thing fisnished without another 2 week Postage and packageing delay.....

will consider options

Dave
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Post by latil »

Is it possible to shorten the valve stems by the required amount?
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