Resolved - Unwilling hot start

[Dave999]

Thorough as always Dave. Good shout on the relay - didnt realise they could be variable.

they are switching the full current of the battery
the more worn the contacts are the more they arc and the hotter they get...heat adds resistance and promotes tarnishing which just adds to the problem

they need to be earthed well. as well.

you have the bit on the guard, the relay, and another similar switch in the solenoid that fires the pinion into mesh both switch quite heavy current

both can wear out get resistant and damaged by arcing

the latter gets swapped out when you swap starter as its bolted on the side or integral to its workings.

i resisted the change to a mini starter for years...i now have one and wouldn't go back.

you lose the sound of a mopar starting
but it starts way better

however your problem is in my mind more to do with heat in the motor from the exhaust.....they just don't like it and that is a well documented problem on mopars with headers

mini starter will by nature of its size be further away.

Dave

[morgan]

Unwilling cold start now. Managed to fire her at the weekend (gawd knows how - she was barely cranking).
this is kinda good in a way in that whatever it is has now gone terminal - I hate a variable problem.
Anyway, she is turned and in the right position in the garage now. Will find the time to tear into it and work it out now.

[Dave999]

you know what

i had this on a VW van and it was nout to do with anything other than a poor connection between the clamp on the positive lead and the nasty green mess that used to be the lovely coppery end of that lead.

is the battery in tip-top charged condition??? or do you have oil like treakle it was cold at the weekend?

or your starter motor is just depressed due to years of hard service

i think you have a starter with a 34/35 mm pinion (dpends how you measure)
so any old Denso style mini Bananarama! from rockauto that works on a 318 or 318 360 magnum will do

40 quid to buy 40 quid to ship

barg...ain

take off old starter
struggle to get the mini starter in due to the less pronounced cut out round the pinion bit
bolt it down
fat lead to fat terminal
1 of the thin leads to the other one
if it doesn't work
connect the other thin lead instead and bind up/tie up the spare

jobs a goodun


Dave

[morgan]

Well, got under the thing at the weekend.
Yeah. No crustiness (I would hope not!), everything tight. Concluded 'sod it, put a new starter on it'.
Managed to get starter off. No way is it going past the headers/torsion bars. So its stuck like a cat in a cradle at the moment.
Do NOT want to take headers off and engine mount and lean it all over etc - horrible job. Elected to pop torsion bars out - I *think* it will just squeeze out that way...Just rigging up a 'tap-out-without-damaging' clamp for bars.

ANYWAY - back to the point.
Ordered this on Sunday. Look what postie just brought ! Thats not bad is it ? 2days from the USA ! True, I bought the wrong starter motor and accidentally got a hot-start-kit but hey - I'm gonna go with it. It'll be better than the one I've got. So, starter, heat wrap, new relay and *maybe* the painless hot-start-thingy. Job should be a good 'un...

[Dave999]

whats up with the starter

looks like a denso to me....

if the wires don't fit you can get a range of attchments that bolt on to whats there and present the connectors at a different angle to the cable
might keep it away from the headers...

[morgan]

Oh its fine; it looks to fit. attachments are the same.
I meant to buy the $120 one and bought a $63 one instead as part of a pack (heat shield, painless and starter). Hence I dont know if I will do the painless thing or not. If it works, its cool...

[Dave999]

yeah it will be fine there will be little or no difference between the 2 motors

regardless of cost, all the bits inside are the same size and shape

one can only presume, in the more expensive ones that there has been some kind or materials or bearings upgrade

or maybe the paint for the case is damned expensive

unless its obvioulsy a custom job with multi mount front on it i really can't see what they do to this starter to make some of them $400+ and some of them $68.

the same starter was used on petrol diesel and industrial/plant engines like generators trucks and cement mixers

each engine type was probably accommodated by slight variation in the gearing inside the motor and the number of turns in the windings of the motor

It would not surprise me if any starter sold as a hi torque version for a mopar is a denso with the motor windings and gearing of a diesel or plant starter motor.

therefore the only thing the seller has done is paint it a nice colour add the appropriate attachment and cover to the terminals to orientate them to where the wires come from and away from the exhaust and fit an appropriate pinion for the intended application. those wire terminal kits are about $20 off a denso agent, the pinions are $15-25 and to fit one with the correct denso tools is a half hour job.

maybe my cynicism is unwarranted and the people who sell this stuff work very hard to make a better product than the original denso design, created by a large multinational corporation that most probably finances its research and development to a great extent.
A motor which was used in millions of vehicles across most continents throughout the 80's 90s and 00s and maintained a good reputation from the arctic to the sahara..

i'll shut up now

i think you made a good purchase

lets hope it does the job

Dave

[wollow007]

Had same problem with mine. Add a spacer between inlet and carb. Phenolic resin work best. Bassicly fuel evaporates and locks carb, makes it difficult to get fuel flowing as it should.

[morgan]

Right - time to close this one. Resolved.
It was the starter wot done it. New starter is in, cranks hard like a good 'un - instant fire up. ut an insulating blanket round the new one too - it it stays on it might protect it. Relay and booster not needed so into the parts store they go.

BUT - before I go - Mein gott what a game that was.
b-body. 440. TTi headers. To get the starter motor out I had to -
- Remove the shock, drop the suspension, take out a torsion bar. This still didnt give me enough room.
- Undo the exhaust, drain the coolant (because we've done that before - not realising the exhaust manifold opens the waterways!) , take the headers off ( I *hate* taking the headers off. The clearance is awful and the tti bolts like putty - getting any torque on is a nightmare).
- FINALLY managed to wiggle it all enough to get the motor out the bottom.

Once I actually got round to doing it, it was ~4hrs. I just needed a run at it.

Taken for a run, heat cycle through it all - need to tidy up a few trailing battery cables etc. Try again to seal the header gasket (tap-tap-tap) - not that it ever seals 100% - but essentially she is there.

Final diagnostic - It needed a new starter. Thanks to all for their input as ever.

[Pete]

Really glad you found a definite Fix, and you are back in love with the Charger.

[morgan]

Yeah. It was an easy one.
i do love her really.

Just had a thought. I dont think I have EVER owned a car long enough to have to do the same consumable twice.
The mini starter that dies was one of the first parts I ever bought for her - the invoice was in the huge stack of parts that Neil (wil) sourced for me 12 years ago...

[MilesnMiles]

Nasty job Morgan. I’m surprised at the trouble you had with TTIs. Mine come off easy and seal perfect every time. Did you use the TTI gaskets? I found that they were key to getting a proper seal with no blowback.

[morgan]

Nasty job Morgan. I’m surprised at the trouble you had with TTIs. Mine come off easy and seal perfect every time. Did you use the TTI gaskets? I found that they were key to getting a proper seal with no blowback.

Tried all sorts. The TTi own leaked and tick-ticked.
Currently on a sort of 'layered aluminium' type - better, but a bit ticky (not re-torqued yet after first heat cycle - will do tonight so might get better). Got some copper ones in the cupboard-of-bits which are going to be my next to try.

I have not had a lot of luck with my TTis to be honest. I mean they are lovely bits of kit - but something about my setup doesnt quite align for them. I had to donk them on the passenger side and fit a shorter idler arm as they rubbed. There is also a black mark where they occassionally touch the torsion bar on the driver side. (in fairness, the torsion bars are hotchkiss monsters now and thicker than the stock that were on there, so not really tti fault.) My suspicion is that the engine is actually sitting in slightly the wrong place so the alignments are just that little bit out.

[Pete]

Small Block Vs. Small Block > Big Block Conversion.

There is a very clear definition of where the engine should sit in the 'bay. It's not just a question of lobbing it in.

[morgan]

Small Block Vs. Small Block > Big Block Conversion.

There is a very clear definition of where the engine should sit in the 'bay. It's not just a question of lobbing it in.

Its an interesting point. Whilst I dont think Blue and I 'lobbed it in' I do also remember that I didnt use the 'schumacher conversion' mounts.
I also had to make a couple of shims to get the clearance further down the line. I'll have a little dig. Maybe just sits a little too low. Doesnt help with the misery of taking headers off of course, but an interesting discussion all the same